Some other things for this wishlist for new patches
When playing 1 on 1 rooms, let there be an option for the player to exit the room so that they don’t have to hurriedly try and exit out of the lobby menu before the other person starts another match. This way, you don’t have to exit the game during the match (not that I have, I just play through and try to exit the main menu afterwards really quickly). One method for this: the losing player HAS to select the “Rematch” selection in the stats screen (displayed after matches) and then (and only then), would it pop him back to the lobby. Otherwise, the winning player would only be in the main room. “Rematch” would be the default selection after losing, and if you want to quit, then you can quit from this same stats screen.
And remember the old Phantasy Star Online days? When you were in the U.S. playing with japanese players? They had a neat icon system for communications. That would be great to have at the end of rounds so that if you didn’t want to talk, you could press a button that would have an icon of some sort. Suggestions would be:
“thumbs up”
“cheese”
“i got lucky”
Some icons are already from SF2 (cherry/cheese) and on PS3 where voice isn’t really used often for this game, it would be a noteworthy addition (even on 360 for those who turn off voice chat).
And I see a bandwagon of babies who want easy wins vs. every non fireball character.
See, I can make a really retarded overgeneralization too!
I don’t see why it’s so hard to understand. Honda has great matchups vs non fireballers, and horrible matches vs fireballers. It’s a retarded character design that only serves to make the lower tier characters even worse. And pretty much everybody in this thread has said they’d just prefer Honda to be more varied in his matchups, instead of no fireball=good, fireball=bad. Are there any other characters like that you can think of?
Honda actually loses to 1/3 (Ryu, Dee Jay, Ken, Guile and Chun), has close to even matches with 1/3 (Vega, Rog, Bison, Sagat, Sim), and beats 1/3 (Fei, Hawk, Geif, Cammy, Blanka)
If that isn’t balanced, I don’t know what is.
It’s not like he’s the only character that has some really good matches, some really bad ones and some more even ones.
Fireball always = bad? He has a slight advantage against Sim. No fireball always = good? Noho’s poll has Rog beating Honda.
Like you said - retarded overgeneralizations FTL
And Honds players defend him because it is we who know how he suffers in his various matchups and how even some others can be, whereas someone who doesn’t play him regularly could attribute their lack of sucess to the fact that they don’t main him.
A. You’re wrong. He has disadvantages against a couple fireballers, slight disadvantages against a few others, an even matchup against another, and probably a slight advantage against another.
B. You’re wrong, it’s an interesting character design. Honda players have to learn to play extremely different styles to compete; they have to rush in some, zone offensively in others, zone defensively in others, run in others, and turtle in others. No other character has such a varied set of matchups, and that’s what makes Honda a cool character.
C. Ooo, Honda beats the worst characters in the game, welcome to half the cast! Why are you specifically complaining about Honda when Fei, Cammy, Gief, and Hawk lose to a bunch of other characters about as badly?
D. You’re wrong, it’s not no fireball good, fireball bad. Again, Honda goes evenish against Sagat and probably slightly advantaged against Sim, evenish against non-fireball characters like Boxer, Claw, and Blanka, and only slightly advantaged against Dictator. Again, who does Honda beat? The worst characters in the game, the characters who lose to a crapload of characters other than Honda. He beats them for the same reason they lose to Guile, Sim, Ryu, Chun etc, that is, because they’re relatively inept characters whose tools for getting around traps and walls set up by their opponents just aren’t strong enough for their matchups to be even. But if you don’t think these characters got better, even against Honda, you’re crazy. Do they still lose to him? Yeah. But beating him is now definitely more doable.
I’m defending Honda not just because I use Honda. I also use Zangief, so I know how fighting against Honda is. I’m defending Honda because these ridiculous fantasies people have about how Honda plays are just getting too retarded to not respond to. It’s like some ancient bard dropped a seed of a myth about how Honda plays and now that seed is becoming a tree whose branches are ignorant. Zangief loses to Honda for reasons that are very similar to the reasons he loses to Blanka and not very different at all from the reasons he loses to Dhalsim and Guile. Honda losing stored ochio and even losing invincible jab headbutt would help Gief, but not nearly as much as would Gief getting good tools of his own, because then Gief could compete against the many characters he loses to instead of just against Honda.
Rog is a hard matchup for Honda if Rog knows how to play it. Machinegun jabs stop torpedos and buttslams, he can low rush HHS and rush upper Honda’s jumps.
Vega can also out-turtle Honda, and if Vega manages to score a knockdown Honda doesn’t have a good response to walldive shenanigans (Vega can switch walls to make Honda lose his torpedo charge and buttslams can be punished with slides).
Bison and Blanka have a harder time but they have tools to fight Honda so I wouldn’t call those matchups “rape” either. I think only Fei, Hawk, Gief and especially Cammy have a really hard time against Honda.
Wouldn’t all this discussion be better in the Character Balance thread?
It’s clear that Honda players Vs fireball-less players won’t budge on their reasoning. I’m surprised it has come to Honda and not Akuma bashing for once
The Capcom crew will decide for us what will happen to either set of characters. And IF someone from there reads this thread, they’ll have a few posts with some interesting discussion on the pros and cons of the changes that were made regarding this issue.
I agree 100%. I’d like to see if anyone can ever point out anywhere where I say Honda needs to be nerfed. My complaints have always been about the other characters not getting anything specific to fight Honda and actually getting tweaked on unrelated things that made them WORSE against Honda, meaning the care wasn’t made to make sure they could fight him.
Also, everytime I’ve suggested nerfing Honda’s moves, I’ve also COUNTER proposed BUFFS to help him against Fireball characters. I want Honda to be competitive and fun, not to lose. And the reason I pick on the Sotred Oicho so much is that it was a free way to help the people Honda destroy.
Dude. Seriously? It IS broken. And there are a LOT of “fun” things for other characters that are broken, too. Why should we take away their fun? :bluu:
I did play ST before. I’ve been losing to Honda for 15 years, now, playing Cammy. The reason there was no peep about him before is because THERE WAS NO ABILITY TO CHANGE THE GAME. Now that a remix was made, wasn’t that the perfect opportunity to fix it? Effort was made by giving Honda so many new toys to try and get passed Fireballs. But no effort was made to help the lower tier characters beat him. That’s where my complaint is.
Because Guile is a better character design. He doesn’t domainte 1/3 of the cast and die to 1/3 of the cast. He’s actually a character who needs knowledge to use and play. Honda doesn’t need any skill to beat the characters he dominates, but needs a TON of skill to fight against the characters he loses to. It’s just a complete imbalance on his part. I can beat average Guiles with Honda/Cammy MUCH easier than I can beat average Hondas. That tells you something.
Please. All I talk about is ways to make him weaker against the characters he dominates and better against Fireball characters. I DON’T WANT HONDA TO SUCK. I want him to be competitive and fun. I used to use him. I stopped because he wasn’t any fun anymore.
Okay. Stop. Really. Stop. Now I am getting angry.
Next thing you’re gonna tell me is that if I made a character that was invincible to the top row of character and died in one hit to the bottom row of characters, he’d be balanced cause he dominates 1/2 of the cast and dies to 1/2 of the cast.
THAT IS NOT BALANCED.
Balanced is has a slight disadvantage to 1/4 of the cast, goes even with 1/4, has advantage over 1/4, dies badly to one or two characters, and dominate 1 or 2 characters. Do you see the difference? Yes, he’s better than he was in vanilla ST. But the level of difference wasn’t enough. He still dies to fireball characters pretty badly and he still destroys Gief, Hawk, Cammy, and Fei. And I agree that Honda should get more buffs to fight Fireball characters and the weaker characters should get stronger to fight Honda. But there are still some things about Honda that will make him INHERENTLY too good against the characters he beats up, and a 100% safe Jab Torpedo and a Stored Oicho are a couple of examples. I’d like to see them nerfed, but only in conjunction with things that make up for it without the inherent unfairness that existed in the other moves.
Well I didn’t say that exactly. I do think he should probably lose stored ochio (although I don’t think he needs a whiff animation), and I’d be fine with jab headbutt being nerfed in some way if Honda got back his standing fierce chop as his default standing fierce move. But I do think that the biggest problem in Honda v low tier characters is that the low tier characters weren’t made better enough in general.
Ah, but that is Honda, more or less. He has disadvantages against a couple characters, a bunch of matchups in the slightly disadvantaged, even, and slightly advantaged range, and then like 3, maybe 4 matchups where he has a significant advantage. But the the matchups where he has the advantage are less advantageous than they were before, and while the reason he still wins has a bit to do with him (ie stored ochio, jab headbutt), it has more to do with the characters he beats, who lose to other characters at similar rates and for similar reasons.
I think Chaghatai’s point about Guile is almost right. It’s not that you should complain about Guile instead, it’s that if a few characters lose to several other characters at similar rates and for similar reasons, and those characters they lose to otherwise have disadvantaged, slightly disadvantaged, even, and slightly advantaged matchups, then it seems obvious that the real complaint should be with the losing characters themselves, not with the characters they lose to. Like I’ve said elsewhere, I wanted to see Gief get a lariat that hits a higher percentage of the time so he could hit headbutt and hands (and Blanka ball!) more frequently, slightly more range on his pokes and spd so he could be more effective from a bit more of a distance, and some slightly better air normals, you know, things that would actually help him get around walls. He didn’t get those things, and surprise surprise, he still loses to the same characters he lost to before and for pretty much the same reasons. This is not Honda’s fault.
JChensor, I say Honda is pretty balanced because he doesn’t dominate the 1/3 he beats for free as you assert. A good Giefer forces Honda to stay on his toes and Honda can even have trouble against Hawk if the giant manages to get ahead.
and he’s not 50/50 either - like I said - he actually has about 1/3 of matches in the fair zone - that’s not bad for this game
There are other characters that are at least as dominant in their wins as Honda is.
Just look at nohoho’s poll - while imperfect, it still is interesting to look at - he’s not the only one with 8’s and higher.
While it covers ST and not remix, most of us here know the difference anyway.
Only acceptable nerf to jab headbutt would be to make it have more recovery, making it more punishable.
Increasing the start-up time perhaps, while he would still be invulnerable might also be interesting, because that would make it even easier to get a safe hit agaisnt him
/I can’t believe I’m suggesting these things - but if the patient must be injured (while I don’t think he should), that’s the way to do it.
Oh, and stored oicho isn’t broken. It’s a command throw - they are good at beating other throws and punishing incomplete combo’s anyway - that’s what they do - are you saying giving him a command throw at all is a mistake jchensor or are you saying that he should get a uniquely wussy one?
i think t hawk is a pretty well designed character.
he just have really big trouble with honda and guile. other characters give him trouble too but these 2 matches feels almost impossible to win.
i honestly dont know what t hawk needs to be better vs honda and guile without making him too good.
going back to honda:
i think most of the grievances of honda is playing against him online. you cant really base anything from online play. online lag changes everything and honda is probably the #1 offender of lag tactics.
offline is a completely different story. it is possible to flipkick and dp honda on reaction to his headbutts, which is almost impossible online.
bison, cammy and ken are also big offenders of online lag. you can’t block scissor kick/psycho crusher on reaction or even anti air his headstomp on reaction. as for cammy, hooligan throw is much better online than offline. cannon drills are impossible to dp on reaction or reversal on wakeup.
ken is the most retarded character in the game hands down. hes ALL gimmicks. lp dp xn. its even better online. sometimes i dont know how ken recovers before me after whiffing his hp dragon punch. i dont lose to scrubby kens but shit like that pisses me off.
sim is horrible online. just a slight lag fucks up everything in his game. one slight lag means either anti airing your opponent cleanly and pushing them back or eating a 50% jump in combo.
his drills are much harder to punish offline than online.
Honda with upper body invincibility instead of full invincibility (or no invincibility at all) on his Jab headbutt, no stored Oicho (but with un-nerfed dizzy), HF-like forward buttslam (but knocking down like in ST), O. Honda normals except for his cr.LK, MK and floating fierce… I think that would make him a decently balanced character.
I wanted to see Honda lose stored ochio (but still not have a whiff animation) and get a slight nerf to the jab headbutt, something like more vulnerability at the back or whatever. And his super doesn’t need to juggle, to be honest. And yeah, I really wish he’d gotten some O Honda normals. Dream list for Honda’s normals:
Standing jab: O Honda (cancelable even at max range)
Standing strong: N Honda
Stranding fierce: O
Standing kicks: N
Standing toward/back+kicks: O (ie, standing toward/back+short would get O Honda’s standing short sweep)
Crouching jab, strong, and fierce: all O (O’s jab was cancelable, O’s crouching strong could actually be used to beat or trade with Sagat’s jumping roundhouse, something N Honda’s crouching strong can’t do, and O’s fierce was a fast cancelable sweep)
Crouching kicks: N Honda
R Honda would have been really strong in footsies with this, and in my opinion would have been what turned his disadvantaged and slightly disadvantaged matchups into pretty nearl even ones. Still not easy to get in, but stronger up close. At the same time, most of these normals wouldn’t really have a big impact on the characters Honda beats except standing fierce, but balancing that out with a slight nerf to the jab headbutt would have it a-ok. The other changes to Honda, like neutral jumping fierce, toward jumping short, easier hands, and slightly more vulnerable hands are all good idea.
They almost 100% sure aren’t going to change honda in the patch, so could you take this discussion elsewhere so I can see what the news is for the upcomming patch when this thread gets updates?
I’ve never heard or scene this bug until now, but transparent and sometimes invisible characters is something I want to see for myself before it’s patched
FWIW I registered a month ago and I never really played ST. Basically went straight from playing SF2/MK in the '90s arcades to HD remix, and I hate Honda and Honda alone with a passion. Starting the game by maining Claw (WHERE I THINK HONDA HAS A NOTABLE ADVANTAGE, NOT “CLOSE TO EVEN”) and now Hawk doesn’t help. When I play friendly games I often play random, and when I draw Honda it’s usually a free win with headbutts and HHS so I do have some sense of how it feels from the other side. I’m a much worse player with him than other characters like the shotos, but I dominate much more with simpler and more repetitive strategy and execution.
I’m pretty sure that this is what people want and are complaining specifically about honda because of what honda got (which he doesnt need as bad as gief or hawk for example) and what gief/fei/hawk DIDNT get and STILL have problems with honda. Thats how it is for me anyways.
i really hope that made sense, ill admit im a little burnt out so if it doesnt make sense ill reword it tomorrow
I dunno, man. He dies pretty badly to Ryu, Ken, Guile and Dee Jay, no? And beats up Fei Long, Cammy, Zangief, and Hawk pretty badly, right? That’s a lot more than just one or two on either side of the coin. I’d actually honestly be OKAY with Honda destroying Cammy if he didn’t destroy three other characters in the same way. I’d also really like to see Honda be able to fight those Fireball characters better.
Obviously when I bitch about Honda, it’s gonna come from the perspective of complaining that he beats some characters up too badly. But I can easily complain just as much as him dying badly to so many characters. But if that’s fixed, he’d be the obvious best character in the game… which is why it’s hard for me to just be mad about him getting beat up by Fireball characters.
Again, I’m very happy that all the match-ups are “better” than they were in vanilla ST. I just felt like there was a chance to make him MORE balanced while keeping him interesting… particularly with giving him the majority of his old moves back! I hate that ST raped his normals, making him weaker when he walked. And making the HHHS slide forward automatically, I think, was also a mistake. Had it stayed where you had to slide him forward or backwards, I think it would have been a wiser move. The HHS basically renders Headbutts at half a screen useless because HHS does the job and is safer, because you maintain your Jab Headbutt charge.
A lot of people quote people like Jodim being able to beat good Hondas. Well, here’s the counterpoint: what does someone like Kusumondo do to good Giefs? He’d probably demolish them. I’d like to know what would happen if someone like Jodim played Kusumondo, actually.
Look, I’m not gonna argue this point with you anymore if you cannot understand why Stored Oicho is wrong. I’ll give it one last shot, but if you insist that it’s still fair, there isn’t anything left for me to say.
For one, it’s a glitch. It’s OBVIOUSLY a glitch. It should have never been there in the first place.
Secondly, imagine if I could DP at the press of a button while holding D/B. Do you think you’d ever be able to Jump at me ever again? You couldn’t even surprise me. I’d be able to DP all Honda Headbutts for free.
That’s the thing. My point is that joystick motion requires at least SOME foresight to perform the move. As it is, it’s too easy to do. Like I said, play against a Balrog. Every time he rushes, tap Jab half a second after the Rush. If he Low Punch Rushes, you block. If he EVER Kick Ruhes, you will Throw him so fast it’ll make your head spin. Most people cannot do this even with their regular throws. I dare you try this with Gief or Honda with their Command Throws. With Honda, I will have a 100% guaranteed success rate at Blocking all Low Rushes and Throwing all Kick Rushes. There is not another character that can do this.
Thirdly, you don’t even lose the Stored command when you Jab. If you can’t understand why that is broken, I don’t know if I can explain it to you.
And lastly, I do not want him to have a uniquely wussy Command Throw. I want him to have the same, fair Command Throw that everyone else has. That’s all. Even Honda fans here will admit Stored Oicho is not right.
