Agreed.
All I’m going to say about honda is that I think buttslam invincibility is a little too good everything else as far as himself or his matchups is not something I have an issue with or at least not nearly as much as everyone else here though I think it’s funny that now a match where he was once dominated in (gat) is now roughly even and even though dictator has clean counters to everything honda can do it’s still a horrendous matchup.
As someone that mains Cammy I find Honda to be a pain in the ass but I’m not going to jump on the Honda hate bandwagon just yet. I don’t blame Honda or his players. I’m just here to offer some ideas on how to make Cammy better so that she can compete.
LP Spinning Knuckle keeps current properties except for the added benefit of reflecting projectiles. Reflected projectiles do no chip damage, if a reflected projectile hits the damage it would normally do is cut in half.
MP Spinning Knuckle has slightly reduced range but Cammy jumps about 1/3rd higher. This should allow her to safely hop over the high Tiger Shot, Blanka Balls, Hondas Headbutt, Bisons Psychocrusher, and make dealing with that slow oval shaped projectile Chun has a little easier to deal with. I find Chuns projectile really hard to get by with the Spinning Knuckle but that MAY be a lag thing.
HP Spinning Knuckle could be about 20% faster. Sometimes I pull off a psychic FP Spinning Knuckle which takes me through a fireball only to be dragon punched or, my favorite, thrown out of the move on the other side. Possibly let the FP version do a no damage knockdown if both hits connect upon a block but this might be a little too much.
Increase in damage to the Cannon Drill. This will help the Honda vs Cammy matchup because then I can elect to trade hits with the headbutt and this time it will hurt him as much as it hurts Cammy.
Possibly increase the speed and decrease the height of the jump of the hooligan throw but this may be too much.
Thats all I can think of, what do you guys think?
This is a post i made in another thread, but it probably fits more into this thread.
I’ve come to like the Hawk vs E.Honda match-up in ST it’s an uphill battle, but certainly not totally unwinnable and not completely stupid.
T.Hawk’s equalizer was his negative edge Typhoon and SUPER which was the only thing he had going for him especially versus E.Honda and Cammy.
Removing the only thing that made that match playable isn’t exactly balancing (no whiff + knockdown dive vs safe dive, what would you choose?) untop of that his SUPER can’t be done negative edge from defensive crouch, which is the one possible equalizer R.Hawk needs in those matches.
No Honda hate from my part, make the other characters more suited to take R.Honda on,
like a million others said.
Basically it’s not Honda without him being a complete douchebag, the way he has always been.
One thing I hadnt realized about Akuma until playing him is that he does have important disadvantages over Ryu that I was unaware of; his fireball has quite a bit more startup, and his hurricane kick has no invincibility. Of course he also has no overhead or rush punch, and takes more damage, and in many cases Ryu’s super is better to have than Akuma’s. Although I do think he’s over the top good in many (most) of his matchups, toning him down without leaving him garbage may be hard. (but maybe that’s ok…)
In ST, sure. But in Remix, I think only Ken and Akuma beat him convincingly, and not as badly as he loses to DeeJay in ST. Guile, Ryu, and DeeJay are still disadvantageous, but not very much. On the other side, I think he beats those characters, sure, but none of them as badly as in ST, and I didn’t think Fei or Hawk lost by the huge margin everyone else seems to think they lost by in ST. So he has a couple real losses, a few real wins, and everything else is in between slight losses and slight wins. Not a big deal.
Buttslam has zero invinceable hitting frames - his invinceability is purely on startup and wears off before he hits.
I will direct all of my future comments of character balance (ie. Honda comments) to the balance thread from this post foreward - I have participated in this thread-jack long enough and for that I apologise.
On another note, I hope they…
stabilize the rooms (especially PSN)
force only one stick input to be enabled on controllers
fix claw and dic room crash bugs
let the hosts control their own rooms - ie kick players
Fix the XBOX live leaderboards
Fix the health bar glitch
Fix audio glitches
Fix the invisable and transparent character glitches
Maybe instead of trying to nerf Honda, let’s just concentrate on simple buffs to help the characters he beats too bad? Sounds like fun to me.
Hawk: Needs the old dive, simple, that plus O.Hawk DP would make the matchup pretty winnable if the Hawk can be patient.
Fei: Old Chicken Wing/short Flame Kick. Improved range Rekka’s with the CW blockstrings could make a Honda get antsy if they’re losing to much health in chip.
Dic (Not that I think this matchup is too bad): Quicker startup on jab Crusher, to beat some headbutts on reaction.
I don’t know about Gief/Cammy, but, it just feels to me like with some of the nerfs Honda got that the ST versions of some of his victims could stand a better chance if they weren’t touched. Now, Honda would still probably win those matchups (except Dic, maybe), but the matchups would be far from impossible. This is except for Gief/Cammy, who I think would still get brutalized.
Can you please explain why you dont think honda beats hawk that bad? Like really. If hawk sits in defensive crouch spamming jabs, honda can walk up and st.rh beat him clean no matter what. Once he gets that life lead, he sits in down back. If hawk gets some kind of tick in, honda can mash all 3 punch buttons from down back and hope that hawk tried to go 360. if hawk went dp, honda is safe because no whiff animation. awesome.
ive beaten hondas before with hawk (solid ones too) but thats because they got impatient. thats really the only way hawk has a shot at winning - if honda gets impatient. most GOOD players wont.
funny story - i was playing in a (offline) tournament with my friend and he played honda vs my hawk (obviously) and anytime i actually got a tick in, you could just hear him mashing on all 3 punches and everytime he got the ochio. the reason this is dirty and works regardless is because, you have to hesitate for a second before you would have to dp honda out of it but by that time, hondas already ochioing you because there was a gap in your tick/block string. it made people cringe watching it.
to be honest, i would rather play honda than guile with hawk but thats another story. guile has to actually be relatively careful and use his head more than honda in that match.(no offense to any honda players, im really not trying to start like a vendetta here with honda players v hawk/gief/fei/cammy players)
Yo if Honda walks up, he’s lost his charge and you can jump or dive at him. Jumping at him at mid-range (ie so that you won’t actually hit him) is reasonably safe, cause your jab and fierce beat or trade with his headbutt from there. Jumping fierce beats or trades with headbutt if you do it so it’ll just hit Honda’s front. Make sure you don’t mess up your poke strings and if you’re going for 360, always make sure it’s at your max range so ochio can’t get you. After a tick, if you think Honda’s gonna do fierce headbutt to get out, do crouching forward, dp, or jump back fierce to beat the headbutt (jump back fierce also beats buttslam). I’m not saying this is an easy matchup, but it’s not that bad. I don’t think it’s Hawk’s worst matchup. Honda can’t play against good Hawks in down-back mode, he has to be active. For Honda it’s an active defense/zoning match in my opinion.
Fair enough. I know about the fp trading with headbutts its just really situational from what ive seen and the risk reward is in hondas favor greatly. Obviously, I exaggerate when I say its 10-0 honda. Really, its about 8.5-1.5 id say. not much better but still horrible. who you think is worse? guile?
Nah, it wasn’t that bad in ST, and I don’t think it’s gotten worse. In these two matchup charts, Hawk v Honda is 3.5-6.5 in one and 4-6 in the other; personally, I’d probably go with 3-7 or 3.5-6.5. I’m definitely no Hawk expert, I mostly just know him from the couple matchups I play against him, so I’ll just defer to those charts as to what Hawk’s worst matchups are in ST. No idea what they are in Remix. And I can definitely tell you that Hawk isn’t Honda’s easiest matchup in either game.
Fair enough - I’ll still disagree with it being 6.5-3.5. Definitely (in my eyes) more in hondas favor. Im amazed that K says cammy beats hawk soundly like that.
The problem is that Hawk cannot deal with Cammy’s Low Forward. Unlike Gief, he can’t even really trade with it. She can pretty much own Hawk for free with just that move. If Hawk ever jumps, you can get a Cannon Spike in really easily.
Again, Hawk needed a bunch of buffs to help him in these kinds of matches. I really thought that it would have been good to make his Towards + Jab much better. Right now, it can hit Guile’s Low Forward, but not consistently. If that move was improved to even hit moves like Cammy’s Low Forward, you could at least control space and play footsies with it.
I actually think Honda and Fei Long got worse. I think Honda beats them better now than he did before. Cammy is slightly better, but I honestly believed Cammy was 0-10 vs. Honda in vanilla ST. So now I think it’s like 1-9, which is still bad.
I’m curious to know what you think helped Honda vs. Dee Jay and Guile in this version, since they aren’t as scared of the Jab Headbutt as Ryu is. Does the Jumping Short that beats Guile’s Low Kicks help a lot? Dee Jay got no nerfs, so how is the fight better in Remix?
That would have been a real smart change. I think it’s unfortunate that most of the changes were focused on improving special move games and not normal moves. Would like to have seen slight buffs to Gief’s normal ranges, slight buffs to a couple of Gief’s air attack hitboxes, Honda get some of O Honda’s normals (especially walking sweeps, standing fierce chop, and crouching fierce sweep), and more range on a couple of Cammy’s and Fei’s normals. And yeah, that change to Hawk’s toward+jab would have been real solid. Slight buffs to his standing roundhouse hitbox and crouching roundhouse speed wouldn’t have hurt much, either.
Edit: Honda’s bad matchups are better because of the more controllable neutral jumping fierce. Like, if you added up all the “help points” from all of his anti-fireball changes, the neutral jumping fierce would have like 3/5 of them. DJ ruined Honda in ST because it was so hard for Honda to just get around maxouts. Maxouts are so wide and can move so slowly that Honda had a real hard time just neutral jump fiercing over them, and DJ’s solid antiairs like slide and standing roundhouse and upkicks made jumping toward over them basically impossible. Well, with the new jumping fierce, it’s now much, much easier to neutral jump over a maxout, and since it’s so controllable, you can jump over a maxout and then control yourself backwards to avoid an antiair. And with the new jumping short, you can actually jump toward over maxouts from a couple precise ranges and beat DJ’s slide. N wasn’t as dominant up close against DJ as he was against most fireball characters because DJ’s footsie normals are so good and his maxout can be so fast (which is a major reason I wanted O Honda’s walking sweeps!), but with jab headbutt at footsie range, I feel R Honda is considerably better in footsies against DJ than N Honda was. O Honda might still have been about as good considering his walking sweeps, cancelable crouching jab, and walking slaps, but oh well. O Honda had even more problems getting in than N Honda did, so overall R Honda is much better than both. I’d say 3.5-6.5 at the worst, maybe 4-6 now.
I thought Honda v Guile was only like 3-7 in ST already, and then plus more controllable jumping fierce, jumping short to get over booms from specific ranges, jab headbutt in footsies, and easier fierce slaps? I literally think it’s a retarded roundhouse flash kick from being even. That stupid flash kick can tag Honda from so far away, even when he’s neutral jumping over booms, but at least that’s rare and not easy for Guile to set up.
I hate match up charts because the match numbers don’t really tell the story that well and the sample sizes used to obtain said charts are usually not statistically significant.
If hypothetically the match up of Hawk vs Honda is 6.5 in Honda’s favor, then it is probably safe to say that if both players are of equal skill level, that the Honda player wins 65 percent of the time, or wins 65 times out of 100 matches.
But what those numbers also say implicitly, is that in order to win those 35 percent of matches for Hawk, the Hawk player has to work significantly harder than the Honda player. You shouldn’t have to work harder to win less than fifty percent of matches against an opponent who doesn’t have to think beyond an isolated set of moves from his move list.
[media=youtube]M5fonsK9i80"[/media] was just put up today of Toutanki vs Kusumondo. You’ll see Kusumondo take the match 2-1 in rounds, but look at the insane amount of work that Toutanki has to do to win a round. He has to defensively spam jab, he can’t jump in on Honda at all unless he wants to eat or trade at best, and his jumping attacks are done defensively as well for the most part, and his command throw loses to ochio during the match as well. Hawk’s jab mashing is done only defensively, whereas Honda, and his hand slaps, control immediately horizontal space and can be done very effectively offensively.
Look how much pressure Honda can keep with fierce hand slaps, he can maintain charge while advancing with hand slaps, and then establish even more horizontal range with a headbutt. Honda beats several of Hawk’s moves with headbutts in this match both offensively and defensively. And because Honda can spam hand slaps and occasional headbutts, building meter is an exercise of mashing and not precision. In the first round Honda plays extremely defensively and stuffs any advancement from Hawk until he builds meter. Normally it should be obvious for a player to want to keep Hawk away to keep him out of command throw range, but Honda doesn’t even need to worry about that as he has his own command throw (with better range?). And once Honda gets super, he gets threatened with a well timed jumping jab from Hawk, but Honda supers out of any trouble (if this was HDR, Hawk would have eaten more from the improved super).
And look at Hawk’s risk and reward with his dragon punch in this match. The dragon punch has such inferior hit boxes to anything comparable from another character that if you whiff the attack or guess wrong you leave yourself open to eating an attack and possibly being knocked down from a decent range. Toutanki has to establish repeated correct guesses and difficult safe jump sequences to use the dragon punch effectively. Look at Honda’s headbutt beat an array of Hawk’s moves, both normal and special, both offensively and defensively and from close and long horizontal ranges.
And this isn’t even Hawk’s worst match (see Guile or Cammy) and look how much of a struggle it is for Toutanki to get close.
One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind, is that if you alter just one move from Hawk to better deal with Honda, or alter one move from Honda to tone him down against Hawk, you are also affecting the 14 other match ups that they have against the rest of the cast respectively.
I constantly see people saying “A character has too hard of a time against B character” but remember there are also C, D, E, F, etc. characters that you have to balance any move changed against as well. I mainly play Dictator and Hawk, both characters that have terrible, terrible times against Honda, but I’m still wary of changing anything drastically on Honda as I’m completely unfamiliar of Honda’s interaction competitively with the rest of the cast. I know Honda vs DJ about as well as I know quantum physics…so I know that if I say “nerf Honda because he’s too hard for me as Dictator” how do I know that that nerf I request won’t complete neuter Honda against the rest of the cast too much? I don’t.
That being said, Sirlin himself admitted that he intended to map Hawk’s new dive to KKK and his old dive to PPP, but time did not permit him that luxury. I’m not sure what else Sirlin had in mind to balance Hawk, but he’s obviously gone from low tier to possibly lowest tier, and without his command throw loop and negative edge command throw he’s a shadow of what he was in ST.
I’ll post a couple more Hawk and Honda match ups in a bit and see if they show the same struggle as the match above.
[media=youtube]xEEcqaCprCA"]Another match of Toutanki taking on Kusumondo. [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1QuUhvOYU”[/media] is TZW and his Hawk taking on Kusumondo as well.
[media=youtube]N4HtxTNWkow"[/media] are some of my favorites. HaruKING (Honda) vs Inomata (Hawk), then YuuVega taking on KKY, the YuuVega taking on Inomata. Obviously posted for the Hawk and Honda match up, but you might as well stay for the rest of the matches as they are quite good.
I’m done with this piece of shit.
How could they even release it?
Game freezes my XBOX 50% of the time i start the game or pick a character or whenever it just feels like freezing.
Yeah I like how this is thread is getting mad posted in. People want this shit fixed now. I agree with the above though…just flat out done with the online portion of this game.
I know what you mean. The problems online are really getting to me as well. Aside from the horrible glicthes and crashes, the lag really detracts from the overall gaming experience because the game seems to mask it to make it seem smooth when it really isn’t.
The effectiveness of reversals are quite literally cut in half because it’s so hard to time the execution in the window during lag. I’ve seen instances where my character gets constantly thrown before the sprites for the wake-up animation even completes