Confirmed patch

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
221

This is what I’ve been saying the whole time. In this match Hawk can do exactly two things:

  1. Sit there doing low jabs
  2. Walk up and choose between 360 and psychic DP.

Hawk won because he got the psychic DP nearly every time (every time?) and he rapid fired low jabs like a motherfucker. If Honda had guessed right more than 20% of the time he would have won.

It’s just a dumb matchup. Not just because it’s hard but because it’s boring and all comes down to one guessing game.

The 360 has better range but here’s a fun fact: even though you are supposed to be able to throw Honda from farther away than Chun-Li something about Honda makes it so that blocked attacks push you out much farther to where a 360 will whiff.

For example against Chun do a point blank jab followed by a short (both blocked), then try a 360 and it lands. Against Honda it will whiff. The only way to tick Honda is off a single jab/short or a medium attack done at the absolutely closest range. If you do a close standing forward from 2 pixels away from him the 360 will whiff.

This means that after a blocked jumping jab you usually can’t do a low jab then tick, and that after a single low jab you can’t do another low jab and then tick. Which makes all your throw attempts more predictable. Basically if Honda blocks any attack he should immediately try to reverse if he thinks a 360 is coming because blocking a second attack always pushes you too far away. And now that Hawk has a whiff animation and Honda still has a stored throw in most situations you’re at the disadvantage in a throw battle - just about the only way to get into range where you can throw him but he can’t throw you is to walk up.

And of course, T. Hawk’s combos don’t work on Honda at all either really. If Honda is ducking you can’t combo the rising Hawk off of any ground attack (IIRC) and if Honda is standing the rising Hawk won’t hit deep and the fierce one only hits once for the weaker hit. So your combos on Honda have almost no chance to dizzy and do half the damage they do on other characters. And hit confirming them is basically impossible, even after a perfect crossup.

Many of these are Honda problems, not Hawk problems. Blocking Honda pushing you too far out is a Honda problem. Jab headbutt beating everything is a Honda problem. Messed up hitboxes that make him hard to combo is a Honda problem. Stored throw is a Honda problem.

Making Hawk’s DP hit lower would help, but not by all that much. (Mostly for combos in this matchup, though it would help against Guile) Apart from removing his whiff animation I don’t see what changes to Hawk would make this battle different without doing something radical like giving him a fireball.

Whereas a couple changes to Honda would help fix this match and a bunch of other matches as well.

222

Look, Margalis, I don’t mean to be a dick, but you’re just blatantly wrong. I didn’t get involved in that other thread much, but fact: you’re wrong. And I really wish you’d stop spreading nonsense. I mean crap, the best Honda and Hawk players in the world put it at 6.5-3.5 and US players, who are no slouches (and ps, I was involved in that matchup chart), but it between 7-3 and 6-4. Enough with this already.

223

hey guys, changing subject, i got a question, lets say capcom or backbone decide not to release the patch (i know they are going to release it its just and example) because it cost money to patch a game, isnt that ilegal? because the did a false advertising saying that you would get a flawless online play almost like GGPO or 2Dfighter, but after we buy the game it sucks online. with a lot of glitches and stuff. it would be the same as you going to best buy and buy a broken computer, they are supose to refund your money or fix it for free, right?

aight thats all, back to Honda LOL

224

I think the jumping down+short helps. Not a lot, but combine that with jab headbutt FB cancel, and the keep-away game isn’t quite as brain-dead easy for Dee Jay (no more max-out -> slide).

225

T.Hawk is Cammy’s easiest fight. No need to think, just poke with low forward like Chen says (cancel into drill at your leisure), and jump straight up with short or roundhouse to beat uppercuts and dives. Front kick if he jumps in. Done, next.

226

Wow, what an amazing rebuttal. I think your wrong. Take that!

I’ve said time and time again that the problem with these matches is less that Honda is too good and more than Honda is too boring and that the best strategy is too often for both players to do very little. We’ve seen video after video of top players that illustrate exactly that. Not to be a dick but players that are far better than yourself. (Or me, for that matter) Chensor said it best, these videos are characterized by characters spamming moves on the off chance that Honda does something. That’s certainly my strategy when I fight Honda, if you have a better one please share it.

Honda is good against a lot of non-fireball characters but the fact that he’s good is not in itself the problem. Guile is just as hard for Hawk but in ways that make for an interesting battle. Fighting Guile uses more than three moves, for one thing.

Also at some point your should probably come to grips with the fact that ST and HDR are different games. Quoting ST numbers makes you look silly.

Instead of “UR WRONG” how about you break down how these battles work in HDR and how characters like Hawk can play them in a way other than mashing low jab?

Edit: Edited out some of the meanness. Nobody is saying that Honda is too good or needs to be banned or that everyone who plays him is a scrub, just that he represents a missed opportunity to fix some obvious problems in the game. A lot of work went into Honda to fix his bad matchups but very little work was done (to either Honda or other characters) to make his good matchups more even or at least more interesting. And these issues were pointed out in many threads here well before the game was released.

I would note that I suggested that T. Hawk’s throw loop be removed. Not because Hawk was too good but because it was boring. The same is true of Chun’s D/F roundhouse, various stored moves, Claw’s dive, etc. All these things were changed not because the characters were overpowered but because they made matches less interesting. That same logic should have been applied to Honda.

227

I already did, to which Gridman responded, “Fair enough.” You can also do random dragon punches, and while they’re not likely to hit, the cost for missing (usually slaps or a headbutt) is made at least reasonable by the potential payoff. This matchup is now easier, because instead of getting back to square 1 or getting tagged with a fierce headbutt after getting a dive blocked, you now get the ability to stay closer and crouching jab or dp Honda’s reversal slaps/headbutt, walk up throw, jump with fierce/jab into whatever, etc. And since R Hawk is based on O Hawk, you get O Hawk’s better rapid-fire crouching jab, better dp (so you trade less and straight-up win more), faster sweep, and better standing roundhouse. And since Honda’s hands hitbox has been nerfed, Hawk can deal with the hands pressure better.

In ST, the best American Hawk players say the match is 4-6. The best American Honda players say the match ranges from 7-3 to 8-2; I think my inclusion on that list is a little dubious, but if it matters, I think it’s 7-3. The best players in the world say the match is 3.5-6.5. It’s cool that you don’t blindly accept expertise, but that should mean at least something to you. And yes, those are ST numbers, but I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that Hawk’s fight against Honda got harder. It got more manageable.

All four of the videos that VirtuaFighterFour linked went 3 rounds, mostly down to the wire. Hawk won 1 of them. In only one could Honda be said to be doing anything like down-back turtling, and even that kinda of misses the point, because Honda was in fact very active with slaps and normals. I mean of course Honda’s going to play keepaway, Hawk is deadly up close; like every other character, Honda wants to make sure that Hawk doesn’t get in. This matchup isn’t all about one guessing game and neither character can play anything like mindlessly. It’s a win for Honda, but it’s definitely a surmountable one.

Also, Hawk’s combos whiff on a bunch of ducking characters. And also, a few characters play considerably stronger defense against Hawk than Honda does.

228

I love this game a lot, and I’m pleased with how most of it turned out. There are still a few things I need to address:

Net code- First off, I hate how the game basically puts a mask over the screen so it seems like there’s no lag. In other words whats going on in the game is not whats being displayed on the screen. In all honesty I’d rather have the game just slow down when lag occurs, at least then I can still tell whats going on.

Glitches/Bugs- Ok there are just simply too many for me to even bother listing. But these definitely need to be fixed like the net code.

Ok now everything else is just a balancing issue that would be nice to fix but isn’t necessary.

E.Honda- Remove his ability to store ochio and give it a whiff animation

Chun Li- Remove her ability to store her super to be consistent with the rest of the game, and instead return the original properties of her super(or close to original). Return the old angle on SBK’s, shorten the start up and recovery, and make them lower to the ground. That way she could perform semi-traps.

Vega- Ok this is gonna be controversial, but make Vega’s wall dive knock down, but make it so it’s unsafe on block at close range. This way he can go for the cross-up but run the risk of being punished on block, or just hit with the tip of the claw to be safe and not cross up. This way the move will actually be worth going for, cause at this point it’s just better to stick to his ground game. I also find it strange how this is the only game where Vega’s wall dive doesn’t knock down.

T.Hawk- I like the idea of the new hawk dive but why completely omit his old hawk dive? Having one hawk dive that is safe but doesn’t knock down, and another hawk dive this is unsafe but does knock down is a very good option.

Akuma- I feel that enough wasn’t done to tone down Akuma, he’s basically just a better version of Ryu. Make his fireballs, shoryuken, and hurricane kick all worse. Add landing frames after an air fireball.

229

Akuma has the same exact startup on his fireballs as Ryu, and has a slightly faster recovery. Although I’m not all to clear on the properties of Ryu and Akuma’s Shoryuken’s and hurricane kicks, it would be nice if someone listed them. But yeah, Akuma could stand a bit of toning down.

230

They seem to be suggesting that in the Hawk thread: no knockdown on dives and a whiff animation vs spammier HHS and a buffed super.

I didn’t play ST, only HD, but as a new Hawk player it doesn’t sound like a stretch to me that the matchup has actually worsened - especially online.

231

To me Akuma’s fireball startup seems slower. (But it materializes farther in front of him) I’d like to see a frame-by-frame analyis. I know Sirlin (?) said the startup is the same but then again he said you could alwasy jump out of RD.

We need someone (paging NKI!) to wire up two controllers to perform fireballs at exactly the same time. I’d put money down on Akuma’s being slower.

The dive is pretty irrelevant in this matchup. After a dive you have the same psychic DP / walk up 360 option you have if you walk in, and most of the time the dive eats a headbutt. I suspect that Honda’s jumping punches beat it clean as well. Honda doesn’t often do slower low attacks that you can jump over at close range then dive, nor does he have many moves that leave him stuck in animation or without charge for a long period of time.

If you are far away from Honda you can never dive at him and if you’re close diving typically isn’t any better than either walking up or normal jumping.

Maybe other people have dramatically different strategies but I basically never use the dive in this match if the other player has a clue. I’d like to see match video of someone using the dive effectively against a good Honda. I can only go on my personal experience and my personal experience is that the dive doesn’t really factor in.

The whiff animation hurts a lot in most matches. The fact that Hawk has a whiff animation now means that he can’t piano after an attack to get a tight tick and any time he mistimes it or the opponent does a reversal he eats damage instead of blocking and potentially getting a 360 anyway.

The combined grab/dive changes tend to help a lot against bad players but against good players start to cross over into net liability. On his blog Sirlin even admitted that could end up being the case.

Edit: Let’s see some video of a good Remix Honda vs a good Remix Hawk!

232

I won’t get into all the other crap that’s flying around in this thread. However, half his post was about tick throwing Honda, and there’s no arguing that tick throwing against Honda is kinda fucked up. The ticks he mentioned will leave you in range for a 360 against every single character, except Honda. Another great example is to just walk up to Honda, crouch for a moment (crouching pushes you a couple pixels away) and then do c.MK. Perfect range for a 360, as long as you’re not fighting Honda. The only way it lands against Honda is if you screw up the motion/timing and walk forward a pixel or two. It’s always been an issue, but it’s much more noticeable in STHD because of the new whiff animation.

It’s honestly one of the most annoying parts of playing against Honda, to me. I work so hard to get in, and then I have to consciously adjust my tick habits because Honda easily gets pushed out of range for no good reason.

233

“Vega- Ok this is gonna be controversial, but make Vega’s wall dive knock down, but make it so it’s unsafe on block at close range. This way he can go for the cross-up but run the risk of being punished on block, or just hit with the tip of the claw to be safe and not cross up. This way the move will actually be worth going for, cause at this point it’s just better to stick to his ground game. I also find it strange how this is the only game where Vega’s wall dive doesn’t knock down.”

What’s wrong with that? His ground game is what makes him such a strong character. The walldive is simply a nice tool that he has, and the fact that it doesn’t knock down obviously means he lost walldive shenanigans, but by no means does that mean he has no reason to be on the walls. It’s still a damn good move, knockdown or not.

234

I know virtually nothing about net code, but my understanding is that the alternative isn’t occasional slowdown, it’s for every input to be delayed by a quarter second at all times. Forget doing anything on reaction, basically. I tried that with CvS2, and it was terrible.

If there’s one thing that HDR does right, it’s that lag compensation. Feels like I’m playing against someone in the same room the vast majority of the time.

235

Vega’s Wall Dive never knocked down in Hyper Fighting. So it being a knock-down was new to Super and ST.

I always thought the proper way to fix Vega (in any game) was to make the Wall Dive so that Punch was always stab and Kick was always Throw, and to give Vega a Throw Whiff with delay if he misses. No option select for Vega’s Wall Dive. I hate it when you can get away with stabbing someone if you missed your Throw.

  • James
236

Well I love it.

237

I tried this last night in training mode and confirmed it. It also affects Gief, even with his longer command throw range. Honda get’s pushed back further by ticks and is less vulnerable to throws then any other character. He also can escape cross-up attempts by using torpedo to fly to the other side of the screen after a knockdown. The bottom line being that it’s very difficult to press the advantage against Honda if your character relies on tick throws (Hawk, Gief).

238

How would you press it on blanka or ken? They have better options on wakeup

239

Cross up splash (D + fp) is 100% safe from reversals on Ryu/Ken. On Blanka you can jump in with D + MK and at the right range it will trade or beat his electricity or Roll. From there you can tick - SPD or reset.

240

How does that beat Ken’s strong DP.

And wouldn’t blanka’s short ball knock them both down if it was hit?