react to the grab animation
I don’t think so, Chie definitely gives me more trouble than most other characters even factoring player skill out.
Mitsuru does have the range advantage, but her pressure isn’t all that strong and unlike most characters, Chie doesn’t usually have any reason to be pressing buttons (and thus get hit by Coups, 2B or 5D/2D) until she’s right in Mitsuru’s face, where she wins. Once she’s in, there’s pretty much nothing Mitsuru can do to get out other than random DPs (which are obviously risky) or throw 50 meter away on an alpha counter.
The fact that Chie can also convert off of pretty much anything anywhere into her vortex is also a huge problem. Mitsuru, on the other hand has to keep worrying about a bunch of super timing/spacing/counter-hit/crouch-specific confirms and generally gets nothing on knockdown outside of the occasional mirror setup (which isn’t really that great of an oki setup tbh, in addition to also being very spacing-specific).
If Mitsuru can make Chie stay on the defensive and push her to the corner, then she can get something going. If that doesn’t happen, it’s pretty much Chie’s match to lose. It’s very similar to fighting Narukami, except Chie has better buttons (low profiles 5a/coup), way more damage and meteors.
I can second what LK says about the Lab - Mitsuru match being 4-6. Labrys actually has a pretty decent neutral game, but the big flaw of her crumbling under pressure against, well anything, gets her killed anyways T.T Sad times indeed.
I am in no way shape or form a great S.lab player, so I would like a little more in-depth explanation on how S.lab wins the Mit matchup.
Doesn’t Mit’s D do like 450, breaking the autoarmor Asterios has?
I have a pretty good Mitsuru at my locals and it seems like he doesn’t even need to leave neutral, he can just kind of chill and D, or if he gets tired of that, Coup Drop.
Or am I missing something when I block or IB it?
Labrys - Kanji: I feel like this one can best be summed up with going over Kanji’s option vs Labrys. His air dive gets blown up by 2B or B+D on reaction. B+D gets a CH to big damage, 2B gets a decent combo for mid - high damage, axe depending of course. Air to air the hitbox on j.B from Lab is just astounding, he has to be careful with the timing. His reversal is really good at getting pressure off him, but Labrys can safely bait it out with 5C and trap set ups, it’s just really not that useful against a lot of her oki. A lot of the pressure she applies before getting a knockdown he can reversal out of, but a good Lab will know at this point what her safe strings and options are (Shit, I do 2Ax3 into 5B, and just hold it to see them reversal and get a free CH, but that’s them not knowing what they’re doing). To get out of 5C, Kanji can do his invincible grab though, it flies through it. In fact, he can grab through a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, Lab has some pretty big and active normals that it’s far from free, and not a lot of recovery so he won’t be punishing her like that. Kanji does have lightning, and there’s not much Lab can say about that. Once he does get pressure on her, he get’s the same mix ups he get’s on everybody else,where whoever guess wrong eats a ton of damage… It’s really a guessing game for both characters at that point, but that’s how grapplers usually go anyways. I forgot to mention that he does have 5C to throw off AA games, and isn’t a defensive slouch either with his big normals and reversal.
Basically, this MU can go in Lab’s favor, but it’s also very scary because Labrys has to stay in and apply very smart pressure, where one fuck up gets a command throw into the 1 chance situation into death. It’s a very 1 chance situation for both characters, I just feel like Labrys is better at controlling that chance. Labrys doesn’t zone or keep Kanji out incredibly well, but he still needs to go in and Labrys can handle it. It seems pretty neutral at first, but I think it’s becoming more 6-4 or 5.5-4.5. I’ll stick with 6-4 until a Kanji player calls me out with something I don’t know.
Uhh… from all the discussion here, Mitsuru wins the S.Lab matchup.
I’m inclined to say Lab Kanji is a lot closer to even than 6-4, given that we’re also calling Liz Kanji 6-4 (Why aren’t we calling that 7-3, out of curiousity?)
Air Dive is definitely something you shouldn’t (And I don’t believe a good Kanji would) just throw out there in this match. If you B+D on reaction to jump-ins, Kanji could and potentially would fake Lab out with JC and that’s gonna be fun times for Kanji. It’s matchup specific knowledge, but once you’ve learned about Lab’s charging B, you just IAD J.C that business for meterless 5k.
I believe that like most of the characters, keeping Kanji at arm’s length (And have him be blocking everything) is Labrys’ game, but her reversal doesn’t do the job of exposing gaps in pressure and ruining some tick throw setups. because of its startup and being able to react to it /after/ you’ve fed it a hit, gives Kanji (And everyone else) opportunities to walk all over her at close range. Her DP speed means Kanji can use meaty Chairs or A chains with impunity, a luxury he doesn’t get with a most of the cast which helps defines those matchups as really bad for him. When he has meter, he has a four frame grab and a really fast, plus on block cruel that will find you from 3/4s screen away.
On the Lab side, you want Kanji to block everything so you build delicious Axe meter, and if/when you get to Red Axe, Kanji has failed.
So I’m not gonna say this match is in Kanji’s Favor significantly, but definitely even, or only slightly tipped one way or the other. With these two I believe it just boils down to who’s the better player. It’s not like Liz/Kanji, which is like pulling teeth.
You definitely don’t B+D on reaction to jump ins, I’m saying air dive is so bad that when you see it, you can just hit B+D every time. The thing is also invincible to throws and as slow as it is, if you don’t charge it you can actually reversal a throw since it whiffs completely, Lab doesn’t get that anywhere else. Don’t forget she gets a combo off a CH from that thing in that situation. That really changes the risk/reward for his throw compared to everybody else, if her reversal lands on CH she gets a full combo for good damge/axe meter. This is one of maybe two MUs where her reversal isn’t complete shit. So once Kanji gets in on her, it’s a complete guessing game for both characters where whoever guesses wrong eats it, so it comes down to her controlling the space in front of her. She has much better mobility, air to air she wins all day, chain breaks lightning, Kanji can’t walk up to her thanks to 5C (can’t be liberal with that cause rolls) and all her defensive options lead to a combo for the most part.
Kanji - Liz is a 3-7 from what I’ve heard from the Kanji players I know, so meh idk why it’s a 6-4 here. I’m still holding to at least a 5.5 - 4.5 Lab - Kanji, she’s just better at controlling the coin flip situation, it exposes some of the just straight design issues with Kanji.
I hate double posting and I’m pretty sure it’s against the rules, but I want this in a different post so F it. Kanji and Labrys are both very likely to be bottom 2-3 in the MU chart, but I can’t deny I see success of people using them and beating these bad MUs. These characters stand a chance in play simply because of their damage output and how volatile they can be. Duckator at SBA took 2nd with Labrys, and if you watch his matches, he takes fights that are clearly not in his favor. Most them (especially MarlinPie’s match) you can see him in these very bad situations, and then the other player messes up once. Bam, dead, next round. So as important as the MU chart is for this game, don’t think for a second these characters won’t show up somewhere.
Any decent Aigis players willing to chime in on her matchups?
Thank you for clearing that up.
A friend told me I win that, and I couldn’t understand why.
Can you guys give me an Aegis match up list?My roommate is going to main her and I wanna know where I stand with Naoto.I will want to play Akihiko and Yosuke too.
new tiers - (imo)
S - Aigis Mitsuru Chie > Yu = Teddie > Yosuke
A+ the rest
So the game is pretty balanced,huh?That’s nice to hear.
yeah it’s all matchup based imo, the top chars have better matchups on average but they still lose/struggle here and there
Really? Over Mitsuru? Mitsuru has one of the best “Get off me” moves in the game, supers that can change the pace of her moves and unlike Aigis, Mitsuru can stay back and push people away with her persona. Aigis has amazing options, I won’t lie as an Aigis player myself but the fact that Orgia management is so important and she’s easily one of the biggest momemtum based characters in the roster.
If someone pushes you away and removes all your pressure by that random R action? Oops there goes your work around and you have to start dashing around the screen burning gauge and once I don’t have it none of my options can help me out. Although I am improving and I know that Aigis is top tier, this character is pretty much for people with ADD or something because you have to be doing something all. the. time. Plus the Teddie match SUCKS mostly because of his stupid j.A into crazy hit confirms. Trap pressure such as drums really can keep an Aigis on the edge.
I think the only characters that Aigis truly destroys is Kanji and Liz, maybe the Labbys.
I don’t think he said Aigis is better than Mitsuru…he said all 3 of them are on the highest tier. Aigis mixups are too easy to do and too strong, not to mention leading to ridiculous damage, even without meter. She murders a lot of characters, especially SLab.
im pretty sure slab does good vs aigis…
but anyway yes, even though i think those 6 chars are S, i think aigis/mitsuru/chie are all more or less the same strength, but no so far ahead that they need their own tier
the good things about mitsuru B+D is the big horizontal range and the fact it hits behind, outside of that it has many weaknesses and is easily punished, especially since she doesn’t have an air super to cancel into.
You’re equating ease of use with matchup advantage. In reality, this doesn’t really matter in tiers where the assumption is that both characters are being played at the highest level, execution be damned.
Can someone explain how Mitsuru is S+ tier? I’m not bashing her because I use her, but aren’t her moves linear and predictable? I’m just going by what I’ve heard.