That’s why I adjusted the values to more conservative ones.
On a related note, it’s nice that I’m finally seeing people viewing the chart. Now here’s hoping those folks actually post here.
As far as Yukiko is concerned,
Akihiko 6.0 – He’s pretty easy to keep out and his low jump doesn’t seem to help his approaches when fans are on the screen. If he touches Yuki it’s usually bad, but his oki is easier to deal with than say, Chie. Yukiko’s D persona moves also control a lot of space and Yuki’s 5A seriously out ranges most of Aki’s pressure if they get within sweep-ish distance.
Chie 5.5 – I think Yuki has a slight advantage in this one, for the same reasons as Akihiko. Differences are that Yuki’s j.A seems to work a lot better, but the Chie mixups are much more difficult to deal with once Yuki’s knocked down. You also have to contend with the fact that once Chie hits awakening, she usually gets at least one free chance to go for mixup using Meteors.
Kanji 6.0 – Hovering just inside full screen range and throwing fans, Persona and fire on the screen keeps you safe from a majority of approaches. It’s so difficult for Kanji to get in without taking some big risks, and even if he gets in it just takes one Dead Angle to throw him back out fairly safely and reset the situation. Add Burst to that and I dunno how many outs you get with Yuki before he can really get in your face and start his mixup game. It also seems pretty hard to deal with Yuki’s 2B fans; j.B tends to get stuffed and j.C seems to whiff a lot.
Labrys 5.0 – Admittedly I don’t know a ton about this matchup, but it’s a little harder to keep Labrys out than other characters due to Labrys’ j.B. It’s very hard to anti-air with fans, and she can actually respond to a lot of things by airdashing and throwing one out. It also has a large hitbox so it’s difficult to roll and avoid in general. Yuki’s got some nice blockstrings at range to keep axe level down. Doesn’t really feel like either character has an advantage here.
Narukami 4.0 or 4.5 – Sword gives Yuki problems, 5B particularly. Makes it very dangerous to roll. Yuki can’t safely throw ground fans due to the Persona-Slide-Move, and up close Yuki’s options mixup and defensive options are limited due to Narukami’s air unblockable moves. Gets an extremely good mixup/approach with 100 meter (Zio OMC), which totally negates Yuki’s zoning aspect in clutch situations (similar to Chie Meteors and Aki Zio OMC).
For the record, the (good) liz players I’ve seen talking about the s.lab matchup on IRC put it at “even or slightly in s.lab favor”.
For what reason? SLab 8C shuts down maziodynes and maragidynes but only lower level Liz players would be using these a lot.
I don’t see any reliable answers for Liz 5C, 2C, etc. The only way the match can be evened out is the vortex SLab gets on a knockdown but getting it started is a problem against Liz.
Oh god, when I finish Labrys’ MUs people are gonna say I underrate her. She has a good amount of issues and is probably gonna be lower on the MU chart from what I know so far, but she has the ability to turn matches around and steal rounds with 2 combos. I’ll make a big post about it when I wake up.
:eek: This is mostly true from my experience. Not an easy matchup by any means.
I believe someone mentioned that Yu vs. Kanji was 6-4 in Kanji’s favor. Um… I have a hard time believing this. For one, Kanji dies pretty hard to Yu 5D oki. Also, Kanji has disadvantage against Chie for I guess in a nutshell three reasons- longer normals (namely 5C, j.C), high damage, and Kanji can’t deal very well with Chie’s oki at all. I’m of the opinion that Kanji is at disadvantage against Yu for similar reasons, except trade Chie’s high damage for stronger oki and overall stronger neutral game.
Alright, I’ll go ahead and knock out some of Labrys’ more obvious ones
Chie: I’ll go ahead and call this one of the worsts at 3.5 - 6.5. Labrys has super slow normals and a terrible reversal, so once she gets knocked down and Chie puts her in the blender, she has no option but to block and hope she guesses right. As far as Lab’s oki goes, Chie has respectable ways to get out of a few of her set ups and be a nuisance (her counter is great at catching our slower moves -_-). In the neutral game being midscreen isn’t too bad, we have j.b and all our big normals, but once Chie gets close to you’re just going to block, into mix up, into probably death. Super annoying to deal with.
**Yu: **Again, another strong Oki character with strong normals too, I have to put him with Chie at 3.5-6.5. We still have all our slow normals and bad reversal for dealing with getting knocked down into Persona mix ups, though Yu’s has more obvious gaps to attempt to get out (I don’t know if I’ve been fighting bad Yu’s, but most of them I can call out the dive and reversal or roll out). j.B gets beat air-to-air by the dive and well spaced j.Bs from Yu, and 2B from Yu, well, is Yu’s 2B. A lot of the match up devolves into waiting on him to come to you and get hit being careless. Once he’s on the ground, Labrys actually can apply pressure, just gotta be mindful of the DP, and actually land a knockdown.
Liz: Erm, 4-6 or 4.5-5.5. Liz has all her big zoning tools and a good anti air/normals to keep us out and they’re mildly annoying. 5C really isn’t all that scary once you’ve seen it enough times, I just hang around for the string to be over and 5A the damn thing. The only reason I call this close to a 5-5 is Liz has nothing she can do to get out of pressure and has such low health. If we knock her down and do 5C, she can reversal through it, and we can jump and kill the shit out of her. She pretty much has to guess the mix up and pray she isn’t hit twice into death. Lab’s oki isn’t super scary, but it works well enough here, IF you can manage a knockdown between the zoning.
I’ll do more later, so far I can agree on the 5-5 Yukiko, I played long a set against a good Yukiko and she had issues keeping me out. Fans really don’t do much. Lab is good at fighting Yosuke though, so I’ll write that up later. I need to play around more with the Mitsuru MU and see how bad it its. Kanji feels 5-5. my buddy plays him so I have ton of experience, I’ll write it up whenever I can. I know fuck all about S Lab so that one will stay blank a minute.
tiers imo
S - Aigis Mitsuru Yu >> Chie Teddie Yosuke
A+ - The rest
game is heavily based on matchups. i think aigis is the strongest but mitsuru is pretty stable for tournaments
mitsuru matchups imo
Yu vs Mitsuru - 5/5
Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4/6
Shadlow Labrys vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5 or 5/5
Kanji vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
Liz vs Mitsuru - 3/7
Akihiko vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
Naoto vs Mitsuru - 4/6
Teddie vs Mitsuru - 4.5/5.5
Yukiko vs Mitsuru - 4/6
Aigis vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
Yosuke vs Mitsuru - 5.5/4.5 or 6/4
Chie vs Mitsuru - 6/4
–
EDIT: you cant tech throws on reaction
Agreed, for the most part.
Why not 4/6 on the Kanji matchup? Even though he can hit so much harder and is scarier when he’s in, I still feel like overall it’s easier to keep the match in control against him than against Yukiko or Naoto
it might be 6/4, im not 100 percent on that one
you can play relatively safely and win but his jC alone makes it too hard to AA him
my humble opinion on kanji matchups (kanji on left):
kanji vs. akihiko 5-5? (jury’s out on this one, i feel whoever gets the first knockdown has the easier time winning).
kanji vs. naoto 4-6 (assuming naoto plays this perfectly, kanji shouldn’t be able to get in. but kanji can easily change the momentum with one knockdown).
kanji vs. chie 4-6 (her oki and pressure are too strong, kanji has too be psychic to stop her from going ham. good thing r-action and command grabs exist)
kanji vs. liz 2.5-7.5 (really bad, kanji has to make way too many risks and be a bit lucky to get anything going. even with her persona broken liz’s 5b and jumping b covers kanji’s approach. maybe i just suck at this matchup but it feels almost helpless).
kanji vs. yu 4-6? (again jury’s out on this one. but i feel that yu’s midrange and oki games can overpower kanji).
again these are only my opinions. i think kanji is the worst character but not by much. all it takes is one sweep or command grab for kanji to win.
Hmm… just checking out the numbers. Chie == Mitsuru?
I’m not sure that updating the list every time someone posts a conflicting opinion is the best way to gather accurate data.
I didn’t update Mitsuru though (she was 67 during my last update, now she’s down by a couple of points). Perhaps I’ll ask Narcowski.
Why are people saying Chie beats Mitsuru? Is it because of Spinking destroying Shuuto or what?
Also SLab and normal Lab vs. Mitsuru should be like 3.5-6.5 or 3-7, how is it 5-5 and 4-6? Mitsuru can do whatever she wants and control the match at all times, the other players have to go out of their way to make good and risky reads to mount any kind of offense. Also Mitsuru breaks Shadow Lab’s persona very easily, especially with coup, 5A, 5B and D attacks, she has to stay in D stance for a long majority of the fight. In fact, I think these characters (and Akihiko) have a harder time fighting her than Elizabeth would…the main thing hurting Elizabeth in the matchup is probably her low health.
Edit: Actually scratch Akihiko, his matchup might not be as bad because he has normals fast enough to punish coup…for the Labrys’, their fastest normals can’t do it even on IB.
mitsuru ground normals are too slow, you cant whiff anything
on top of that, chie converts all air CH into AoA knockdown, all ground hits into sweep knockdown. vs mitsuru wakeup 2b, all she needs to do is delay the sweep
if mitsuru gets caught blocking, chie can do w/e she wants, all mitsuru has is really risky stuff
chie can low profile 5a/droit/jA
chie’s max damage is comparable to mitsuru’s and she does more damage midscreen off more things
labrys does well vs mitsuru in neutral and mitsuru cant use 5d at all since chain knuckle flat out beats it, labrys moves are slow but they dont have much recovery, and labrys always has a chance in every matchup because of red axe
if mitsuru catches labrys blocking (especially in the corner) it’s sad times, so 6-4 for mitsuru
slab - same as labrys, except her dp is infinitely better, so she does better on defense. despite mitsuru having a lot of ways to take persona cards, slab still has good normals. even though her 2b is technically a little worse than lab you can use fire or laser to help cover, so it’s ok. mitsuru does more damage but the way slab makes her play she doesnt get a lot of opportunities to create damage, i was thinking either 5.5 or even. really, slab dp is enough to make it a better matchup than lab
Even? The chart puts Mitsuru at advantage for Lab and S.Lab.
LK do you think your opinions on the Chie matchup are partially due to the fact that MarlinPie is the player who gives you the most trouble on a consistent basis? If everyone is free to you besides Chie players, it may make the matchup seem tougher than it is.
I agree with all of your points, though I think a lot of them apply to Chie vs. anyone. This isn’t exactly a game that favors blocking, and Mitsuru is still better equipped to deal with Chie’s options than most characters. It’s certainly possible for Mitsuru to control neutral for the whole round and then get one good confirm to keep Chie out of awakening.
Either way thanks, I’ve learned a lot about fighting Mitsuru by watching your stream. I’ll try my best to make the matchup 7-3.
my opinions are based on playing a LOT of matches
i used to think mitsuru had the advantage vs chie, then i went to japan - a lot of my thoughts, from matchups to the depth of the game, changed after my trip