I’d say Shadow and normal Labrys too.
By really lopsided, I mean from the get go you can tell that there’s obviously something wrong. Then again, I don’t know much about how the match up goes for Labrys and Shadow Labrys. But two of the match ups I listed are pretty uniformly considered among the worst match ups in the game. Yukiko’s used to be as well, but I heard it got slightly better when Mitsuru j.A was nerfed from the May patch. But that match up is still very rough for her.
My own personal tier list. No real order with each tier. Ignore the letters in the background.
This game is really fun. I know most will disagree somewhere but this is from my own personal experience. I play Yu btw.
I’d say it’s more like:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u/index.html#ya0-trhi77dq9tg89sbecddzcdb59u00mblfcciwcdey79cc788ucegdccit9t-bkg
Nobody’s low tier, it’s just about who has more favorable matchups. If you think a character’s bad (like Hsien-Ko bad), you haven’t played a good player using them yet.
Yukkiko less rounded than Kanji?
Liz more rounded than Labyrs?
Akihiko is more rounded than Narukami, and Kanji is more well-rounded than Teddie?
The mmcafe graph tier-lists are so awful. Does nobody understand how to read graphs??
MM Cafe graph tier lists are pointless for 1-on-1 games. For those, you should be making a matchup chart (which, by the way, we all need to sit down and start discussing more).
I wasn’t really paying attention to the horizontal axis tbh, just the overall tier hierarchy. I definitely agree about the matchup chart though, I hadn’t thought of that.
Here are my thoughts on Teddie’s match ups:
[LIST]
[]Vs. Yu Narukami - 5 - 5
[]Vs. Yosuke Hanamura 4 - 6
[]Vs. Chie Satonaka 4 - 6
[]Vs. Yukiko Amagi 6 - 4
[]Vs. Kanji Tatsumi 6 - 4
[]Vs. Naoto Shirogane 4.5 - 5.5
[]Vs. Labrys 5 - 5 (maybe 5.5 - 4.5)
[]Vs. Shadow Labrys 5.5 - 4.5
[]Vs. Akihiko Sanada 6 - 4
[]Vs. Mitsuru Kirijo 4.5 - 5.5 (maybe 5 - 5)
[]Vs. Aigis 5 - 5
[][LEFT]Vs. Elizabeth 5.5 - 4.5 (maybe 6 - 4)[/LEFT]
[/LIST]
You should probably state why…
Liz is 6:4.
Personally, I feel Mitsuru is even. I have more trouble with Yu than with her.
Been thinking of fixing the list and adding automatic color formatting as well as formulas for the matchups.
Shadow Labrys matchups from what I’m seeing from videos and experiencing…
vs. Yosuke - 7-3 for Yosuke
He can run circles around her pretty easily, her normals and persona attacks are too slow to touch him. His R-action also lets him get out of a number of setups that most characters can’t get out of (though there are still some yosuke specific ones that can work if timed right). If he sees the persona doing stuff to help her get in, he can usually 5C or 2C the persona pretty easily.
I don’t really see anything positive about this matchup for Shadow Lab
vs. Elizabeth - 7-3 or like 6.5-3.5 for Elizabeth
What can Shadow Lab do against Elizabeths mashing 5C? Also at first I thought that this matchup could be in Shadow Lab’s favor because of her 8C uppercut punch but this only stops zoning at a lower level…better players will just move after the persona goes underground so the punch would whiff. The problem isn’t maziodynes or maragidyne, it’s 5C. Logically it would seem like her R-action could stop it but it only hits the persona and Liz can immediately do another 5C right after she’s lost a persona card (why? this just makes a lot Liz players play braindead mashy) an d punish your r-action recovery.
So what does she do against these characters?
Fixed the match-up chart, the color codes are now automatically added. Also the upper right triangle now automatically computes their values based on the number entered in the lower left triangle. I’d personally like to thank Mr. Wah from FreeStepDodge who did the conditional formatting and formulas in the DOA5 Matchup chart we’re doing for their site (which I just copied and applied here).
EDIT: Color codes have been changed a bit due to Google Docs’ limit on the number of conditional formatting rules that can be added.
EDIT2: Goddamit, we need more data. So far, we only have Mitsuru, Teddie and Naoto complete.
Is just anyone able to edit it? If so, I couldn’t figure out how. Anyway, my humble opinions on Chie’s matchups:
Aigis 4.5
Akihiko 5.5
Elizabeth 6.5
Kanji E
Labrys 6.5
Mitsuru E
Naoto 5.5
Narukami 4.5
SLab I never play any, feels like probably even
Teddie E (where did you get 6-4 from?)
Yosuke 4
Yukiko E
Hesitate to give anything a 7, but vs Labrys is close, and Liz is also pretty free. I also do not believe that Liz-Kanji is anything close to a 7-3 matchup, but I guess people will go on believing that forever, since the Japanese said it one time 6 months ago (and are biased against grapplers).
No, not everyone is able to edit. For obvious reasons.
Also, keeping S.Lab vs Chie as “?” until someone else can chime in.
I’ll continue discussing some match ups with other Teddie players since I see you’re updating this. I can be wrong with some of these…but I seriously think Chie is such a pain in the ass match up for Teddie. :\ He can furious action all day (well, not against oki set ups) but his approaches are limited in this match up. Can anyone enlighten me? I can care less if this is a good or bad match up, just want to know what can Teddie do?
I lose against Yu a lot, but I still feel that this match up is pretty even. Whenever I play against Yu players offline, It goes back and forth, and that is when i’m playing a lot better than I am online. It’s all based on how fast the player responds to his raging lion pressure and a missed frame trap/block stun with izunagi. It just seems like the match up becomes 7-3 once you’re stuck in Yu’s pressure game against almost a any character. Its not as bad as Chie’s automatic Oki. In the end, I just give this match up 5-5. It really depends on the players.
Btw I didn’t say to add my matchup numbers to the list, since I was just giving my thoughts and wanted a conversation about it. Needs more discussions. I don’t know if Shadow Lab vs. Yosuke/Liz is really that bad, I want to know if I’m doing something wrong. I also don’t see enough of these matchups in Japanese play to come to a good conclusion.
I added them because I do agree with the breakdowns you gave. Though for S.Lab I believe one of her problems with the Liz matchup is that Liz can easily hit her persona if she’s not careful.
I’m keeping it at a 5:5 for now since, from my experience, going full “Marvel mode” causes the Chie’s I play against to back down and get caught in my cross ups and mix ups. As for Yu, all my matches against him have been ones that could have gone either way, so I’ll agree with 5:5 as well (most of my losses were due to bad decisions on my part).
That’s true but for the record, the persona getting hit by maziodyne does not make it lose a persona card(unless it is counterhit). Main “card breaking” moves she has to look out for is 5C (which is the big problem I think), 5B and maybe 2B.
I suppose I missed the fact that if Shadow Labrys gets a knockdown, Liz has a lot of trouble getting out. Liz R-action definitely won’t work unless you’re napping, 2B won’t work against the anti-mash setups. Command grab super could work in some situations, haven’t really tested it. Overall though, getting the knockdown is a problem and Elizabeth gets more damage out of her combos than SLab does (though both have bad health).