Conceptual 3S rebalance thread (keep rebalance discussion in here!)

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
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Street fighter 3 was created to be as different from street fighter 2 as possible. Street fighter 2 was pretty much dominated by fireballs. The idea was to make street fighter 3 more technical by adding in a parry system and super cancels.

Of course, the game as is is pretty much dominated by hit confirm -> super, genei jin setups, or aegis unblockables. The reason why those strategies are so good is that they are safe low risk strategies with high rewards. The parry system pretty much removed zoning as a form of strategy, since obvious attacks can be nullified by a parry…you can’t really push someone back if they don’t want to be pushed back. As a result, i don’t really understand a lot of the nerfs to fireballs. In street fighter 2, I can combo a fireball into another fireball with Ryu pushing an opponent in the corner. In street fighter 3, I can hit with a fireball in the corner and still be punished. On top, fireballs generally do pissy damage. Ryu’s fireball does 8. in contrast, jab shoryuken does 21 points, and straight fierce punch does 19. Short kicks do 3 points, but i can chain 3 of them together to do more damage than a fireball. Really, the fireball’s only use is to aid in hit confirm. Right now, good players can punish a fireball on reaction. Fireballs are worthless as weapon…It’s pretty sad.

I have a lot of suggestions to rebalance the game, but really if a character doesn’t have a low hit confirm or some form of low risk setup, said character is not going to be top tier. It’s just the nature of the parry system.

Take elena for instance. Her low short kick is really her only cancellable low. However, it is not chainable and it doesn’t have enough stun to hit confirm. All that it would take to make Elena a top tier nightmare would be to make those short kicks chainable. She already has the easiest overhead -> super options in the game…but no confirmable low.

Think about it…if ibuki’s super art 3 was charge max 2 and her short kicks were chainable or her low foward was cancellable…what happens? Top tier.

There’s no point in rebalancing this game…it can’t really be fixed without an extensive overhaul.

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oh, plus, some of the suggestions don’t work. For instance, the 10% increase to shinkuu hadoken damage.
Ryu’s fireball super is really misunderstood. On the one hand, against a standing opponent, it barely does more damage than Ken’s super art 3. However, it has the weird property that it doesn’t stand up the opponent at all when it hits. That means when you get crouch counter, you get a good 20% (or more if it’s a low health character) extra damage out of it.
Don’t believe me? Go to training mode, make opponent crouch, do lowforward -> super. It’s a crapton of damage in this case. Pretty much every other super in the game stands the person up after the first hit, shin shoryuken included. This is why the damage on this super is so random. Increasing the damage would mean in some cases shinkuu hadoken would do more than landing shinshoryuken, since the first hit of shinshoryuken stands up and most of the damage is in teh 2nd hit.

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If you want to see what I’m talking about, turn on system direction and go crazy. You can pretty much see what happens if everybody had a really good hit confirm.

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Damn, that was a wall of text. I totally agree with you. I think 3rd Strike has a great balance as is, but Yun and
Chun should get a few changes to even the game out. They can still be in the top tier of characters, but they shouldn’t have 8-2 matchups.

They only need a couple of nerfs each. Yun could get some more damage scaling during and after genei-jin.
Reducing the (effective) time he gets during the super would work, too.

Chun seems like she needs some kind of nerf to SA2. I think it should just do less damage (as opposed to making her lose a stock), because hit-confirm into SA2 is really what Chun-Li is about. She could also use a taller hurtbox in her crouching animation. IIRC part of the reason Oro, Necro, and Alex all lose so badly to Chun is because she can completely duck under their mid-range pokes.

The problem inherent to rebalancing 3S is that everyone wants their own version of the game, and we can easily end up with a game that’s just not 3S. I think this idea’s good because it leaves us playing almost the same version as the Japanese. If people want to practice 3SO in America and play on Arcade in Japan, they won’t be completely thrown off by 3SO. In America, we can hold 3rd Strike at EVO and hopefully expect to see some character variation.

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agreed. The third strike system will intentionally and unintentionally make a character broken imho. And most balance suggestion revolve around boosting a characters offense or lowering another characters damage output which doesnt really balance things out if you keep the system intact.

Chun for instance. Her sa2 causes big damage but its the fact you WILL eat a kara throw against a high level chun player is what makes her scary. its virtually unavoidable at high level. so i dont mind her damage output at all. if you want to “rebalance” chun you’d have to recreate her from the ground up. its not worth it

what would be ultra cool is a 4th version of this games system with old and new characters created by the guys who made 3s.

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I haven’t played third strike very much, but here is my novice prospective…

It’s kind of hard to explain, but if you look at the tier list, all of the top tier characters have clean easy flowing hit and hurt boxes.

The characters at the bottom (with the exception of Sean) have weird hurt boxes that almost feel like they don’t belong in a fighting game. The hit from weird angles and look and feel unnatural to me. To me, it’s like they’re part of a completely different game.

The visual design may have something to do with that, but I think it boils down to what people have said, in order to rebalance the game, you’d need to start from the bottom of the list, and alter the makeup of the bottom characters. I’m talking complete hit/hurt box changes, character reach and speed changes. Honestly, I think it would take a complete animation overhaul.

That being said, I have a hunch that the first dlc for the game will be an option to use a rebalanced roster. I think it would be amazing if they just rebalanced the entire game, but didn’t tell us what they changed. After a few months of playing the game, an entirely new tier list would form on the new version, but the option to play the old version would still be available. that would be amazing to me.

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Some suggestions look pretty much reasonable, while others totally ruin the character’s gameplay. This game is 10 years old, and the latest matches(mostly high level skill from japanese players) show that every char, even a low tier, can beat a higher tier if you know how to read and parry the opponent.

Yun’s lunge punches are very punishable. Except for the lp lunge punch version, you do not even need to parry the others. A simple block and grab is enough.
Parry it and punish with any combo. Making sa3 similar to ryu-sa3 bar will nerf him a bit. This way, yun can do a reset combo but he won’t get back enough meter to activate genei-jin in a few sec.

Chun-Li health bar is average compared to the rest of the cast. I do not see anything OP about her health bar. Can’t say for the rest…

Makoto sa3 at genei-jin level, will make it useful. I agree.

Dudley with less recovery on the command dash will make him play as broken as Chun-li.

I would like to see ryu;s shinku hadoken doing a little more damage, as well.

Hugo has already high priority on normals. Small tweaks in his pokes recovery look ok , i think.

Ibuki walkspeed and super jump is really fast as it is. Her mix ups are godly in ground or air. Her only serious flaw is the low health bar, not the gameplay.

Sean is supposed to be a joke. He could have been a decent fighter, though. Nice suggestions.

Street Fighter III:3rd Strike does not look unbalanced to many 3s (pro) players, because ppl were playing it for years, so they were adapted fully to its mechanics. Many different strategies, mix ups have been developped to counter the higher tiers. Parry helps a lot, as a balancing feature. High tier does not necessarily mean: it’s easier to win or easier to play.

I would love to see a 4th strike, its ok. Pure 2D with some balance tweaks as many ppl suggested already. Maybe a new roster, as well. I like 3s as it is, for now.

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-cr.MP should be a true low.
-Scratch Wheel needs to suck much less. Invincibility on startup would be much appreciated.
-EX Spin Scythe should launch everybody, even a crouching Chun. This matchup is hard enough without my combos being worthless.
-Kara-throw xx Super Arts III is perfect. Don’t fuck with it!

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I don’t see a full-fledged sequel with new characters happening. Someone’s gotta draw those new characters, and I don’t think Capcom wants to deal with that.

Its tempting to ask for a rebalance, though, because now seems like the only time it could ever happen. Capcom is watching. But they’ll probably end up screwing it up

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If you want to make necro good, make his command grab -1 on block.
B- fierce should come out faster.
Stand fierce should come out as fast as dhalsims in sf4 =).
His fall speed should be much faster, and his dash double the speed.

Necro has some really good normals, he just suffers from high recovery on a few, like stand fierce, c.mk, back fierce.
He has a hard time crouch teching for some reason.
He could use a buff to the recovery of his command grab and a speedup on his command overheads.
Dive could be a little faster, but it’s good already.

Not sure if it would be a good idea to buff his supers, sa1 could be 2 stocks?

His dash and air time are probably his biggest flaws.

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For me Sean just needs to quicker rush game.

Sean’s ex specials being safe on block (already mentioned)

Ground tackle to go under fireballs - This would be great for his mid range game. This maybe a too much of a buff, so I was thinking maybe the last half of the dash could go under fireballs. But saying that, I don’t come across people spamming hadoukens like previous SF titles.

Ability to combo his strong+roundhouse into specials (like Ken)

Large hit box on his dragon punch or make his short flying kick a better anti air.

Slightly quicker roll (as already mentioned) would be great tool to escape corner traps so I don’t have to rely on the ground tackle to escape.

Would be really cool if you could control the basket ball that Sean throws when he taunts. Something like holding down taunt will give you control of the ball, letting go will allow you walk.

As for Super arts, not happy with the delay on the 3rd super art, sometimes I really struggle to combo it even though in the same situation his 2nd super art would connect.

Quicker walk speed than the other SF2 shotos wouldn’t be bad either.

IMO Chun, Yun, Gill need to be nerfed, then the bottom tier need to be brought up so that they can compete at midtier. Everything else stays the same

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I’m not going to troll those that want a rebalance, but I will share my opinion.

3rd Strike doesn’t need rebalanced. In my eyes it’s a very balanced game because the lower tiers can completely beast. I use Q, Twelve, Elena, Alex, and Remy, and am learning Necro and Ibuki. I am more scared of a good Elena or Alex than a good Ken or Yun to be honest. Alex can stun you in 2 seconds, and Elena is ANNOYING as all fuck with her good ass pokes and combos.

The top tiers are so freakin overrated in this game, and the lower tiers are underrated as hell! Speaking of just had a nice set with an awesome Elena tonight. GG’s Neon Brahmin. He uses Q too and we took turns beasting this Yun player who was NOT a scrub whatsover.

I think people need to quit worrying about game balance and just enjoy the game. I get plenty of wins even though my characters are not top tier. It simply does not matter. Use the tiers as a reference guide and a matchup reference. Seriously and if you have any doubts come play me and I’ll make a believer out of you.

They tweaked a game with similar balance to 3s in ST and most top players (including myself) prefer the original ST. I don’t want a rebalanced 3rd Strike, and if they made one I wouldn’t play it, and I’m sure a lot of 3s players feel the same.

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I feel the tiers don’t matter until you get to the highest level play of the game. The problem is the US doesn’t have a whole lot of extremely high level play…
Remember when Justin got perfected by Tokido’s unblockable Urien? That happened because Justin doesn’t know the matchups or situations. Yet, in that tourney, he got 3rd place. We just aren’t at that level.
When people know the matchups and situations…the top tiers shine. I don’t care how good you are. I’ve never seen Kuroda consistently win tournaments with Q. He often beats good players once in a while because he’s just that good, but I don’t see him winning them. Until you’ve played a robot japanese chun you don’t really understand why she’s so damn good in this game.
Who was that Yun player from family fun arcade? Pyrolee? Ask him what Ken, considered a top tier, can actually do to Chun. He’ll prove it too if he picks chun and you pick any of the shotos.

I’m sorry, tiers matter in this game. Maybe not MVC2 bad, but it’s definitely as bad as SF4 AE.

OH yeah, when was the last time a nontop tier won a big 3rd strike tournament in the US? It’s never happened. THis game is OLD…yet it’s never happened, and it never will happen. At least in marvel a lot of players said MSP was too random and would never win EVO, but yipes did it once.

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Indeed. The tier list matters as long both players are equal in skill. It’s not really that bad, though.

High Tiers have always been in many street fighter games. For example, ryu, karin, zangief, akuma from Street Fighter Alpha 3. Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Vega(claw) in sf2 series. The games were still enjoyable, though.

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Not even as long as they’re equal in skill imo, they only really matter at the highest level of player. Below that level Chun/Yun don’t even dominate much and if you’re losing to them you should probably reconsider your gameplay… But a lot of people love hiding behind the tier excuse as an excuse for their poor play (most low tier players are in fact terrible no matter the character they are using).

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I have a question for the truly experienced 3s players out there (and I mean people playing this seriously for all these years):

Do you think, that at a high level, it would ever be possible for, let’s say, a Twelve player to beat a Chun-li player?

I mean, theoretically, it is possible, if the Twelve player just beasts and makes perfect reads every single freaking time. But what’s the probability, in your opinion, of something like that happening?

Remember, High-level.

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You can go on youtube and see plenty of matches of Twelves beating on Chun Lis. Is Twelve going to win Evo or SBO? Probably not. Is he going to beat down on Chun Li sometimes in tournament even? Yes. That’s what always made the game fun to watch for me. Seeing people know enough about the matchups and their opponents to get the wins with the lower tiers and not just have developers make the matches easier for you.

It’s like in SFIV Guile vs. Bipson. Sure Guile rapes Bipson but it’s not like Bipson can’t win matches at all. If you’re smart and truly love the character you’ll get your matches in. Winning a major…not looking hot but placing well at a major with enough effort put in is very possible. Hard ass work that would be less hard with other characters but Twelve is not a character you play unless you absolutely love him up and down any way.

A lot of this game competitively I feel was untapped especially in the US since there was only a small percentage of players that went to majors that were like legitimate threats. Which a lot of those players just went for the higher tiers because that’s what they do in every other game any way. The top 10 characters of the game can all do very well at a major and the top 7 or so can easily win a major with the right amount of effort. The cast below that is looking at getting good breaks in the brackets and generally just getting an uphill amount of reads but it’s not impossible. It’s only the cast below that that is really in trouble for placing top 3 at a major.

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I’m not the best, but I’ve seen a lot of Japanese high level play in person over 10 years (yeah, I’m old now lol). I am surprised that anyone could even ask such a thing to be honest, but that’s probably due to all the bad rep on SRK these past few years so I can’t blame you. A lot of people are just repeating things they’ve heard and haven’t really explored the game themselves.

Mind you I think 3rd Strike is amazing, but I don’t think it is balanced at all. Then again it is definitely far from impossible for a 12 player to beat Chun and anyone who says it is needs to step their game up. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a video of Yamazaki 12 beating Nuki Chun-Li in a Gamer’s Vision ranking battle a few years ago, I’ll try to dig it up.

12 vs Chun-Li is probably like 3-7. So at the highest level of play, if you were to take the best 12 and Chun player and they had the same level of skill (hint: they probably don’t), 12 would win 3 matches out of 10 which is bad, but not really quite as bad as people are saying on this site. Hell, I’ve seen Genki’s Alex beat MOV’s Chun-Li at a major tournament and that’s an 8-2 matchup. And MOV is pretty much the best overall player I’ve ever seen, beating him is freaking hard man. But he can also play Sean and wreck like 95% of all players with him and sometimes he does…

If you were to have a best-of-10 between Yamazaki 12 and MOV Chun-Li, I can’t say the result would be 7-3 for sure because I’m not sure Yamazaki is as strong as MOV as an overall player (even though he’s a beast, and yes I have played both of them). In the long run, Chun will have the advantage for sure but you can always win a few matches no matter which character you’re using. If you lose every single time you’re just not as good as your opponent, even if you’re using Sean or Q it doesn’t matter. The top Chun-Li players in Japan are also pretty much the best players in the world IMO (along with Boss/Kuroda), so they make the balance look even worse than it actually is. I’m pretty sure guys like Nuki, Rikimaru or MOV would also be the best at their secondary characters if they decided to make them their new main but since they are serious about winning and being the best, might as well use Chun.

AE has a bunch of 7-3 matchups too and it’s not like you never see people winning these matches in tournaments. It’s hard, but clearly not impossible -you’re just going in with a disadvantage and the best-of-three format in American tournament makes it even more difficult. The number of games you are playing is a key factor in determining how feasible it is to win a difficult matchup hence why 3s is usually more entertaining in single-match and team tournament formats. I’m not saying these formats are superior or anything, but that’s just the way is it for some games (vanilla SF4 and SSF4AE would end up exactly the same if people played them for 12 years straight).

Sorry, that was probably off-topic and a lot longer that it needed to be but I love talking about this game… :smiley:

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Sorry if it sounded extra scrubby :stuck_out_tongue:

Looking back at my question, it is sort of dumb, as the match-up is obviously not 10-0. Still, I was looking for the answer to “Does it feel unbeatable?” and both of you answered that with a “no”.

(BTW, I’ve seen Yamazaki play, the dude does magic with Twelve. It’s always good to see the kind of dedication that the japanese players put into their character. They almost seem to be always fighting on equal footing. Almost.)

Thanks for the replies!

PS.: Yamazaki 12… that’s a brand of Whisky.

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Well, for a rebalance to be accepted by top players, I think the most important thing is to not touch the top tier of characters. Doing this will only make top players dismiss a rebalance - and really, if you are going to change a game that’s been around for more than a decade, the last thing you want to do is turn off the people who have stuck with it for years.

Just buff up the middle and low tier characters. This can be done many ways.
-Safer moves.
-Easier hit confirms.
-Changes to general properties (Super gauge, life gauge, stun gauge, damage output, etc.).

I’m too damn tired to think of anything specific, but you get the drift.

If we were to see a new SF3 (unlikely) or a SF5 that tries to be like SF3 (more likely), I’d like to see this done: each character is given two specials. One is easily parried but impossible to block, while the other is impossible to parry but does not chip on block. Both either have long start-up time or long recovery to make them punishable if abused.