A re-balance would be interesting and fresh but isn’t necessary, IMHO. People asked for a arcade perfect port and we got it with 3S Online Edition. Capcom learned from their HDR project.
Oh and fireballs are useful! 
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Just 3? 
There goes my plan to rebalance the game by banning everyone except for Yun and Chun.
You know Capcom…they can’t get everything right.
I admittedly don’t have many thoughts on the potential for a rebalance in this game. I think it’s good as is. That said, one thing I think a lot of people are getting wrong is the direction a rebalance should take: If 3s ever gets a rebalance / SF3:4x ever comes out…
Balance changes should be bottom up, not top down.
Yun and Chun are good characters, but being good is a good thing, not a bad thing. They don’t have stupid broken mechanics that fundamentally cause problems with the game system like top tiers in some other games have, they’re just better than the rest of the cast.
In the event of a rebalance, they (along with Ken and Makoto ) should be looked at as a benchmark. I mean seriously, imagine if SF3 were rebalanced toward the middle like some people were suggesting and everyone ended up being Oro or Necro tier. zzzzzzzzz
^editted out the things I’m not replying to.
-Geki seems redundant with Ibuki. Given the SF1 characters that have later been given fleshed out movesets in later games ( Adon, Gen, Eagle, Birdie, Sagat ) Gen and Eagle would probably fit best in 3s out of those.
-Fuck Blanka
-Viper might work actually, the character feels incredibly wasted on the SF4 engine
-We have enough “master type dudes with immense power” in the SF franchise. The former idea would be better than the latter
-Poison would just be Yang with a fireball instead of a command dash and shittier normals. Assuming they take her SFxT moveset, it’d be weird giving her completely new moves again.
I want them to rebalance this game just so I can tell people I’m playing Street Fighter 3: Third Strike: Online Edition: Remix
The game is fine the way it is. Maybe more people would see that if they stuck with a game instead of abandoning it the instant a new one comes out.
What are you talking about? Capcom says 9 months on a game is plenty. You’re crazy.
but… but… Sean, he is so much fun, but utterly useless against top tier players. :sad:
In hindsight Sirlin went overboard with the changes, maybe just tweaking frames and hitboxes would have been better.
Whilst theres no point changing the game now after all these years, it would have been nice if, way back during the original arcade release, all the SA’s were viable for each character rather than most characters having 1 or 2 optimal ones.
For those who cry HERESY, imagine if what I just said was the reality, and now people are suggesting that the game be patched so that certain SA’s were dominant for each character, and the other choices mostly useless. I’d bet there would be even louder cries of HERESY then.
Speed up his normals a little, give his QCB+P and QCB+K more priority. Make SA3 gauge longer so he can do 4 EX moves (if not 3).
Off the top of my head =P
That is ALMOST Rev. B 8or Dreamcast version) wich ppl hated (LOL)
Give Ken a pink gi. That’s a nerf in itself.
i don’t know why some poeples bring HDR as example of bad rebalanced old game project
HDR feel much different than ST because of graphic …(which i think it’s so ugly and BTW i see original ST spirits are so much better than sf4 3D models) the graphic has changed which give the game a different taste…if you want to put an example put kof 98 or 2k2 um’s…
optional balancing patch…i don’t mind to buy the game in double price with it.
make seans basketball do fireball dmg
It should do a black screen + explosion thing like Q’s Total Destruction
Just my 2 cents on the whole rebalancing issue,
IMHO, I think the absolute least amount of changes would be the best solution to re-balancing 3S. And the changes should be things that have almost ZERO effect on the actual game play mechanics, or physical properties of moves, hit boxes, combos, etc.
In other words, the changes should only effect general strategy and tactics, although only in a minor way.
Many people have already made the TWO most important and most logical suggestions already.
These two changes alone… would probably go very far in toning down the superiority of those two characters, and that would give the rest of the cast a slightly better chance when fighting them. The main thing is that these changes would not effect the actual game play mechanics or fundamental properties of 3S at all. All combos are the same, hit boxes properties are the same, parries are the same, links are the same, footsies are the same… everything would be the same.
The only differences would be that Yun and Chun would not have as many supers at their disposal every round, and I personally think that would be enough to change the balance, just a bit… enough to alter the win ratios a tad anyway. It would make Yun and Chun players have to work a little bit harder for their wins, but the Yun and Chun players would still know that the characters operated in the exact same way as before, at least in terms of their moves and combos, etc… because nothing changed about them except for their super meters.
This solution would also mean that everyone who loves 3S would probably be satisfied and happy that the “basic” and “fundamental” game of 3S would still be, for all practical purposes, the exact same game.
Now I know there are some people who will say that even these minor changes to Yun and Chun’s super might affect the game in some drastic and crazy way, that we can’t forsee. But let’s just use our common sense, the only things affected would be their super usage “strategies”. And although that can be a pretty big deal, let’s remember, we’re only talking about giving them fewer supers per round. We’re not changing their supers, or their properties, or their power, because they are still used in exactly the same way and manner as before… just not as frequently.
And so what if it lessens the overall power of Yun and Chun, that’s exactly what the change and re-balancing is for, to bring them down a little bit so that they can’t just dominate the game so heavily.
And there is no way that these small changes would take them from top 1 and 2, all the way to the bottom tier, or even mid-bottom, so that shouldn’t even be debated.
And I know some people might even say “why bother” if the changes are going to be so small or so few. But my reasoning is that the game is already very good just the way it is, so why make drastic changes, especially if drastic changes aren’t neccessary to rebalance the game.
So in actuality, I’d hardly even call it a “real” rebalancing of 3S, since the changes would be so few and possibly so minor. I don’t know, but the term rebalancing seems like a major overhaul type of thing to me… but maybe that’s because of what HDR did in terms of rebalancing ST. I think it would be just a slight tweaking, and I think it might help the game become more balanced, while at the same time retaining all of the qualities that make 3S such a fun and great game.
And just for my own taste, If I had a say in one other change, it would be this:
IMO, this seems more like a fair and logical result.
Anyhow, those are just my thoughts and ideas. I think they’re pretty good solutions, but I’m no expert. I know they would make me enjoy 3S even more than I already do though.
Peace
Here is a good post from another thread that I think makes a very good point.
<<<the main culprit in the regression of fighting games falls into simplifying controls and having more leniency on inputs, which falls into sirlin’s and ono’s school of thoughts.
when you lower the ceiling, there is only so much you can do to progress. t-hawk in ST vs t-hawk in HDR is a perfect example of lowering the ceiling for what you can do to compete. anyone who plays the two of them will tell you how much more difficult it is to play with the ST version with all of his option-selects. it takes a lot of dedication to maximize ST hawk’s potential, not so much with the limited HDR version. how is there progress if there is less room to learn and expand?
the number of options become more limited within this school of thought. let’s say there are three options available: A- most high damaging but most difficult to execute. B- fair damage, easier to execute. C- little damage, easiest to execute. now, let’s just make option A easiest to execute. option B and C become obsolete. in doing this, you get more people playing at “high” levels of play but really everyone is playing in a densely populated area of only one option.
now if all three options are kept as they were (with the three levels of difficulty), the game changes drastically. two players will go into a game not knowing if the other has all three options at their disposal. both are going to have to feel the other out. if one uses an option C tactic, the other has an idea of what he’s up against and now will play accordingly. he can now risk more to gain more because his opponent’s abilities are limited. if the opponent had used B, well, you’re not quite sure what this guy can do yet and you’re going to risk less. if option A was used, you know that this guy is at the top of his game and you can not make a mistake, especially if you don’t have option A at your own disposal.
there is a multitude of differences in gameplay when there are levels of difficulty in execution. a player can actually bait a mistake by not using his most damaging options early. you can actually allow your opponent to get into a habit of playing recklessly because he doesn’t know that you have the TOD at your disposal. once the third round starts, he opens with a reckless tactic and loses over 60% of his health and is stunned, he finds out too late what you’re capable of. on the other hand, if everyone can already maximize damage, none of this matters. so what if your opponent hadn’t used his most damaging tactic early, you already know it’s still at his disposal because it’s easy to do.
so not demanding a balance change has little or nothing to do with the regression of fighting games. when you limit depth by allowing easier controls and input leniency, that’s when things really go downhill. the games that lasted over the last ten years are all games that have low to high levels of execution involved and funny thing is most of them are unbalanced. all other games died because it didn’t take much dedication to unlock their potential.
Good post, these are exactly some of the reasons why too much, or over rebalancing is not a good thing.
I’ve seen so many post that talk about why “old school” ST players hate on, or dislike HDR, and they all say things like “old schooler’s” are mad cause they can’t win, or they can’t adapt, or they just hate change, or other silly things like that. And that’s just ridiculous because for the most part TRUE “old school” players thrive and live for THE CHALLENGE, that’s what made SF2 great to begin with. So IMHO, it doesn’t have anything at all to do with having to learn a new style, or new tactics and strategies, or even the new nuances of the games… the real truth of the matter (when it came to HDR anyway) is that some of the changes actually made the game play worse, especially in the areas of game mechanics and the physical properties of moves, which is exactly what the post above refers to in terms of “input leniency”.
Input leniency has created more problems than it solved, and this applies to the SFIV series as well. There are very specific and verifiable examples of ENTIRELY wrong moves coming out (consistently) due to input leniency.
Although I haven’t spoken to many of the “old school” ST players myself about HDR, I have spoken to a few, and I’ve read through some of the old threads dealing with HDR. The general consensus is that the game is too fundamentally changed, which resulted in a glitchy mechanics game, rather than the true precise, crisp and clean ST mechanics.
In essence, IMO, the reason that HDR did not gain the support of the masses, is because HDR did not really improve on the overall quality of ST, specifically in the area of game mechanics and physical properties.
Anyhow, my point wasn’t to really go into discussing HDR, but I just wanted to add to what the original post was saying in terms of the balance changing. He made some very good points and it’s one of the best explanations I’ve read on the issue.
peace
these are imo very reasonable small changes that would make a satisfying small difference to everybody.
yun - more recovery on lunges and shoulder tackles. damage scale geneijin by 20%
chun- girl health change only
ken - 2 bars only, slightly bigger bars for SA3
makoto - make SA3 geneijin size. i think it’d be better to have more of but last not as long. and people might use it
urien - improve stun on the temporal thunder by 20%
akuma - improve damage of raging demon by 20%
yang - make his taunt faster by 25%
dudley - give a few frames less recovery on all versians of command dash. and make the window to go through fireballs larger. the timing is too hard right now and nobody really ever tries.
ryu - lower recovery on taunt by something 20-35%, make shinku hadouken do 10% more damage
oro - make some of his pokes a bit better by making them a faster or more priority.
Q - give him more base defense but taunts max out the same place.
necro - improve damage on a few of his slow seldom used heavy normals like the long range HP and the long range HK. make his special overhead kick a bit faster.
hugo -a bit more priority on a few normals. less recovery by maybe 4 frames on a whiffed ground to air grab.
alex - rework elbow charges to leave alex a bit better position to his enemy. also make HP elbow charge be hit confirmable to SA2 for full hits. slightly faster and slightly faster recovery on standing HK, a bit more blockstun by 4 on a blocked HK and a 10% faster movespeed of the neckbreaker. make it also recover 2 frames faster at all levels.
ibuki - 10% faster walkspeed. make her super jump more floaty and go farther
remy - allow sonic booms to build meter
elena - make cr lk and cr mk low attacks only (parry low only)
twelve - increase throw range by 1 frame. faster startup on standing HK by a small amount and 3 frames faster recovery. 10% more hp. make invisibility go invisible 35% faster. make X copy 35% faster to change form. decrease X copy back to twelve transformation 35% faster. give twelve 3 supers for SA1
sean - make his roll ball 40% faster at all levels. make his EX moves safe on block
i haven’t been able to play this game much and i haven’t read through this thread. just don’t have the time and i’m sorry if this is already covered, but i think it would be interesting if some of the characters could delay their hitting frames like in tekken. q has his standing fierce and roundhouse, which would change his game up if you could hold the button down, and then release it when you actually want him to hit with it.
another thought is that while holding down the button, you could cancel the start-up frames of the normal with a different normal. like i said, haven’t played the game much so i don’t know how drastic a change like this would be to the engine. honestly, i like the game as is right now.
It’s a bad example to use players who practiced and put in work with their character to get better :rolleyes: