Half the stuff you said most people aren’t arguing. Very few of us, if any, enjoy lag. I hate it! And most won’t play with a high ping. One reason I play online is because it’s free. Another is because gas has become ridiculously expensive for me to drive to Nebraska and Colorado regularly (if at all) in order to get games. I am the entirety of Team Wyoming. It’s just me. I don’t have the means to get to another place. A lot of top players have the means outside of online play.
Claiming that because some don’t play online makes them scrubs is putting words into others’ mouths. Noone claimed that. Your stretching arguments to fit your counter-argument. I for one, but among many others, treat online incarnations of a game as entirely different games. Saying you’re better when a good player plays online for the first time? OF COURSE! It’s like if someone who’s good at street fighter tries soul calibur for the first time. When he loses, the other guy is obviously better. But at the same time, because he doesn’t want to play soul calibur, for whatever reason, that doesn’t make him a scrub. But knowing full well what elements are present in street fighter, and blaming them for your loss, is scrubby.
I should emphasize the following because these facets of online play seem to be getting skewed in this arguement:
There is no one in their right mind who believes that online play holds equal merit to offline play. That’s simply ridiculous. The programmers never intended for the game to have an input delay. There are many top players who refused to play online because of the delays involved and that’s their choice. What is being argued is that if you’re going to enter the online playing field, it is unfair for you to hold the same criteria of the offline gaming environment to the online one. The input delay hinders play but it also allows new venues of playing the game. I feel that if you’re going to play online and considering yourself a good player, then you either adapt to the environment or move on. It’s beyond annoying to have someone complain about the legitimacy of “online tactics” while comparing them to how it may or may not turn out offline.
We are not playing offline. If we were playing offline I’d be able to (take Garou for example) feints, breaks and even guard cancel properly. I don’t have those venues because I’m on a pad that I don’t program. My thumb just doesn’t work that way. I accept that fact, re-tool my game for online and play through. I win a lot more than I lose and I’m happy with that. Offline some things wouldn’t work properly but my entire arsenal would be opened up. The offline game is superior, that was never in contention. It’s a matter of realizing that if you’re going to play online, then deal with the changes rather than complain about what could have been.
I hope these weren’t addressed to me, because I haven’t said anything regarding tournaments of any kind. I also like how you don’t seem to care whether you’ve read the topic closely enough, or whether your comments are entirely accurate, because this topic’s not really worth your time, and neither are we I’m assuming?
You’re practically wallowing in your own elitism.
When I said play to be competitive, I mean’t competitive in the fact that if you’re expecting the other person to hold back their playing style to accomodate your beliefs about how the game should be played, then what’s the point of playing them at all?
If I suddenly told you that you couldn’t do any fireball zoning in ST, and you lost, did that win really mean anything for me? Not that it means much in the first place, given the online environment, but why disintegrate what’s left of the meaning in that win by imposing your own arbitrary rules and regulations on every match you fight?
If you dislike the way things are done online, then it’s probably just better not to play at all, like Master Giby for example.
Obviously the online and offline venues are completely different, no one is denying that. Hell, I even remember a topic listing the different online tiers for Alpha 3 a while back.
I’m just saying that if you go online, you know exactly what to expect. Don’t act all shocked and outraged when someone mass splashes you to death, because you knew it was coming.
Online, that is unfortunately a part of the way the game is played. Like I said, think of it as a very annoying extension of the game system. Things were designed without lag in mind, but unfortunately, that is something that is a part of the game online, so you can either play and adapt accordingly, or you can be stubborn and lose time and time again.
I have to play much more defensively with the lag element in place, because there’s too much lag between inputs to allow me to effectively rush someone down without getting nailed by a dozen random DPs/supers. I play totally differently at 30ms than I do at 90ms, because I have to, or I’ll lose. This is why most pros don’t play online, because it develops terrible habits.
This is part of the reason why I stay away from certain games online, because they’re just too different from their offline counterparts and I can acknowledge that.
V-ISM for example is almost useless online unless you’re playing on excellent. I could play and complain everyday, but that just makes me look like an idiot.
You can’t expect people to play a certain way just to please you. It doesn’t matter if the lag was an unintended element, it’s there, and you can either adapt, lose, or not play. No one’s going to think any less of you if you don’t.
Nobody tells you how to play at a tourney (not counting stuff like “no infinites”, “no boss characters”, etc), and the same should go for kaillera. That’s not to say that I don’t get pissed when I get beaten by an N. Vega player who jumps in 5000 times, but I don’t complain about it, because it’s part of the way the game works online and I knew that when I opened that ST game.
If you told someone at a tournament that they couldn’t splash more than twice in a row with 'Gief and that tick throws were limited to one every 3 knockdowns, they’d look at you like you were nuts.
If you think of the offline and online games as 2 different entitities, things make a lot more sense.
People are going to complain about lag tactics, since people don’t like lag. There’s no way you’re going to have the userbase kaillera does, and not have people sometimes opine about things they don’t like. (You’ll find that in any community setting.)
Would it be wonderful if everyone didn’t complain, sure, but it’s not happening, so like lag you’re going to have to get used to the haters too. (Or just…ignore them? It is very possible.)
The problem is, as always, defining what is game breaking, and who should determine it. I’ve had people call blocking gamebreaking, and there are people who says infinites, or bugs aren’t…
It’s very possible that say, Milo and myself might disagree on what is gamebreaking, and what isn’t…
One example, Goro’s df+C glitch combos. On a mid-tier char like say, Mature, something like that I wouldn’t mind so much, but on a powerhouse, I think it’s something that shouldn’t be done. Of course, then you get into the arguments of tiers. It’s really all a very murky circle, where there is no community standard. I think you have to be prepared to play two ways:
Play to have fun style, and Play to win(cynical) style. Use the latter when you’re dealing with fucktards to GGPO them, and crush their spirit. Versus players who don’t use those tactics- play a more fun style . THen again, there’s no getting around the murkiness of this issue- so I basically use this.
Play those you feel aren’t fucktards. Avoid the fucktards. That’s about all you can do.
Aw crap, you’re talking about me…yes, I did use Goro glitch combos, and Athena/Iori unblockable glitches. About Goro’s combos, they are recovery rollable (in kof2k2 atleast). And as for Athena unblockables in 98, they aren’t unavoidable, and I consider t hem to be combos…after all, Athena’s comboability in kof98 is pretty limited, so the unblockable glitch sort of evens it out…
Well my main points were that, if you are going to use such lag tactics online, don’t look at me with the “I’m better than you” attitude, when you win…don’t even think about being better than me when you do that. However, there are many people out there that start reacting as if they’ve won SBO.
What are you complaining about then? These people aren’t saying they are better online players than you, they are saying that offline the game is different and if you played the same way they would beat you. What are you bitching about then? Are you doubting the validity of the statement? That would be a contradiction to most of your post, because you claim you’re not arguing that. Are you complaining that they made the comment? So people aren’t allowed to say things because you don’t want to hear it? Then don’t fucking play online then. You’re just a whiner, that’s what it boils down to. You want to censor everyone so that you feel better about winning a game online, rather than to be reminded of the reality that it’s just online. You claim you don’t argue that, but if you have no reason to argue why are you complaining? Why does the truth hurt you so? That’s what this stupid thread has been about from the start, it just took what, 2 pages to tease it out of you? I and others actually knew this from the start, but we all humored you because we knew we’d eventually be able to force you into this position.
Kyokuji: The other option that you keep ignoring, is to simply not play at all, or only play people you know play the right way. This is what I do, or rather, a lot of it is the act of not doing. The people I play against (in the extremely rare moments that I play) can win offline, and are very good players. They also hate the retarded online tactics, because they’re serious players. We try to minimize lag as much as possible, and use excellent connection setting or older mames to achieve this, and try to find a stable server. You can’t force me to play you or any one else that I think plays a scrubby style. You can’t convince me that the scrubby style is somehow “legitimate”, in fact, you admit it isn’t. Yet for some reason, you want me to play people like you and be happy about it. I just don’t understand your thinking process. Look, I don’t care about flaming people online or arguing on the internet, atleast not anymore. I just don’t understand how you think people don’t have a right to choose how they want to play or who they want to play. If you hate it so much, just don’t play online, simple. This is part of the environment, something you’re fond of pointing to. If you hate it, just quit playing, or play only other people that abuse lag tactics and don’t have any complaints about it. I’ll play the people that don’t because they hate it, because I think the game plays better that way.
You whiners need to realize you’re just “kaillera warriors.” This is really ridiculous, and I guess I’m done.
lol how can you argue this. there is no adaptation to online play at all. The way most people play online is far from how the game is played. And yes, there is a certain way these games are played with certain tactics that work and won’t work. Anyone who argues this is just an idiot.
You’re making a very large assumption there.
You can ask the people on this board what kind of player I am.
Just because I defend someone’s right to make a racial slur, doesn’t mean I’m a racist.
And the sad truth is, lag tactics are legitimate in an online environment.
Why the hell else do they work? Would they work offline? Absolutely not, but MvC online is not MvC offline. King of Fighters online is not King of Fighters offline.
I can guarantee you that I could play someone like Mike Watson online and luck out a win at some point, because it’s not anywhere close to being the same game (although this is less true for some fighters).
This is why a win online is such a subjective thing; something you already recognized.
The bottom line is that fighting games online =/= fighting games offline.
You could practically name most of the online variants an entirely different revision and it’d be perfectly justified.
Now you can either choose to acknowledge that and play it as though it were another game, or you can choose to live in your own little world where you only play those who are willing to pretend that there’s no lag present in the game environment.
What you’re doing is living a fantasy and not acknowledging the reality of the situation. Some kind of twisted “honour play”.
Not that you don’t have the right to play who you want, but I get the feeling that your spectrum of viable opponents is extremely narrow.
I don’t want you to be happy playing people who lag abuse, I just want you to acknowledge the fact that the game you’re playing online isn’t and can never be the game you’re playing offline, no matter how many artificial rules you set in place to try and make it that way.
That being said, if you lose 1-30 to somebody, they’re still probably better than you. Lag element or not.
The complain here is that everyone is tired of hearing people whine about the applications of lag online in comparison to how the game would be played offline. We all know the game is played differently online. We also realize that the game takes on different applications online. The players that make the adjustment should not be punished by those who can’t adjust with verbal abuse because they don’t play by some pre-constructed notion of how all games should be played. Offline is offline. Online is online. The games are 90% the same but you’re going to come across variations (whiff j.hk no recovery throw in Garou for example) that you need to adjust to. It’s not rocket science. The better players adapt, learn the timing for a tech and move on. Others feel they MUST have the ability to punish because that’s how it was offline and won’t adjust.
As for the latter point, you’re so beyond fucking ignorant it’s ridiculous. I organize every tournament in all of Ontario and aid in major tournaments all over Canada. I place top 8 month in and month out among some of the toughest CvS2 comp anywhere in North America, including US majors (see ECCXI results). Don’t ever fucking call me a Kaillera Warrior you ignorant little bitch. I put my time in offline, beast on just about everyone I come across and contribute to my community on a far bigger level than the vast majority of players on this forum.
Uh, you’re still a kaillera warrior chump. That stuff has nothing to do with what you do online. Let me quote your post: offline is offline, online is online. You play scrubby online and brag about it, and brag about beating people on kaillera, you’re a fucking kaillera warrior, bitch. You’re also a stupid twat.
You’re a fucking idiot. Who the fuck are you to tell me or anyone that they play scrubby online? You’ve never played me before and all you’ve got to go on is the complaint of one guy. Big fucking whoop. Also, when do I brag about beating people online? Show it to me. Again you’re just fucking ignorant. Talking shit and you don’t know a fucking thing. Guys like you are a disgrace to this community. You probably don’t even place well online or offline in tournaments.
I have no idea where you got that from.
Resorting to hositility and personal insults now that people are calling you on the assumptions you made? You haven’t even addressed any of the other points that we brought to the table
Your tone seems to have gone from smug elitist prick to angry name-caller.
I haven’t been listed in the bad games thread a single time, besides one incident where a troll was impersonating me, and yet you seem to think I’m a lousy player even though we’ve never played a single game together. I may have disagreed with you, but I never said a word about how you played.
Jumping to conclusions about the skill level of the people posting here is not a good way to add to the credibility of your argument. Neither is insulting their mothers and insinuating that they might be an illiterate vagina.
Ho ho, I am not the one to make that assumption, it’s you who made it. I only left the implication open, and you made sure to run headlong into the assumption. As for calling names, obviously, you have done that first, so obviously KyoKuji must be directing that towards you, eh? Probably not since you are both retards. Oh there I go, I called you two names. Well whatever, you opened the doors.
And about skill level, isn’t that you again? I never said anything about your offline ability, but it seems you’ve instantly jumped to skill level for me. But of course, I kind of expected this. Since you’re getting beaten left and right in an argument, you need to try to distract everyone from it and try to salvage your wounded pride. I frankly don’t care about your offline play, because that isn’t the argument. The argument is that online play is different from offline play, and if you play the way you play online in offline play, you will lose. Now, the answer is fairly obvious, you play a different style offline or else you wouldn’t have any success whatsoever. The argument is about online playstyle in offline. In other words, you actually don’t want to talk about offline ability at all, you’re just trying to scope shift your way out of the mess you found yourself in. A lot of hostile language, whining, claims about yourself for something unrelated, you’ve sure gotten really into this haven’t you?
Do you want to try again, or can you admit I’ve thoroughly destroyed you here? Like I said before, I don’t care about internet arguments in the least. I have absolutely nothing against you, you just said a few stupid things and I commented, and I admit I took some level of amusement out of it. I absolutely do not care if you like online play, and I firmly wish you luck in helping out with tournaments and placing well in offline tourneys. Hell, I even hope you win some of them. But you’re arguing here about justifying retarded play online and claiming that it’s the way it should be. Now, you understand there is a difference I guess, and not everything I’ve posted was even directed against you, even though you seemed to have interpreted it that way. Anyway, I don’t want to be a dick or anything, but to just defend myself a little bit:
[17:57] ECC entrant: i don’t wanna burst his bubble becuase he is decent at cvs2
[17:57] ECC entrant: but
[17:57] ECC entrant: ummm
[17:57] ECC entrant: i’m pretty sure you could’ve made top 16 at ecc this year
[17:57] ECC entrant: lol
[17:58] ECC entrant: even though you haven’t even been playing much
[17:58] ECC entrant: there was one person that made top 16 that i know for a fact i could beat
[17:58] ECC entrant: easy
[18:00] Serpent: can I post this, and just change your name?
[18:00] ECC entrant: yeah put anonymous or something
[18:01] ECC entrant: there were 3 people that made top 16
[18:01] ECC entrant: 3 or 4
[18:01] ECC entrant: that are good
[18:01] ECC entrant: but wouldn’t have made it that far if the big names showed up this year
[18:03] ECC entrant: i don’t wanna take away from him making top 8
[18:04] ECC entrant: but the top 16 this year wasn’t anything to be excited about
[18:05] ECC entrant: if he beat someone like justin, nestor, or arturo then that’d be a big deal
[18:05] ECC entrant: put all that in too
[18:05] ECC entrant: lol
I quit a long time ago. I know what it would take to get back to high level, and I actually have some of the, if not the, best competition for CvS2 in SoCal living with me. True, I can’t get him to play as much as I want to, but if we were to seriously train I absolutely believe I’d be back at top level within 2 weeks. But again, as I said, that isn’t really the point. We’d be praciticing offline, obviously, not online. This isn’t about offline ability in the least, and this is no place to talk yourself up. If you really want to keep debating the actual points, we can do that, although you need to calm down and try to think intelligently. You’ve completely lost your cool and it’s only a messageboard. Relax holmes.
I don’t know what’s worse, complaining about lag, or complaining about the people who complain about lag.
When you start making assumptions about someone’s skill level, you can be sure that they’re going to retaliate.
I’m not going to defend Nagata, because I’ll agree that the insults are unnecessary, and quite frankly all that shit is between you two, and you two only.
However, when I argued, I stuck to the issue. You’re the one who started going after people’s playing ability without any hard evidence to back it up.
You still haven’t said a word about my post.
Whether you like it or not, what you’re playing is a lie.
Oh- for Emil. I wasn’t referring to you- and 95% of the KOF I play in 98, where the Goro glitch isn’t something you can recover out of. I just know some good players who use it, and some who don’t think it should be allowed…
im feelin like a scrub…
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i cant find a driver for the ps 2 to usb controller…
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i cant use a controller so im getting beasted on by bullshyt…
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lag is killin me…but i learned to pay attention to members ‘ms’ at the end of there number…
gettin my ass kicked on a xbox 360 controller…ROFLMFAO…
you shouldn’t need drivers for a ps2 to usb adapter =/
[Quote=Serpent]
But you’re arguing here about justifying retarded play online and claiming that it’s the way it should be.
[/Quote]
Maybe Nagata isn’t but I sure am. I wouldn’t call it retarded, but it’s what gets wins. How can you argue with a win when the conditions were equal? And again, NOONE who thinks lag tactics are invalid has explained why or how the gaming SHOULD be. Here’s me, again, asking all those who think one shouldn’t use lag tactics online, "How am I supposed to play, then?"
If you can’t answer this, you don’t have a right to complain, because I would take it to mean that you’re just sore about a loss and you’re a scrub.