Complaining about lag tactics

[Emil]

You must consider yourself a high level player then, right? If so, then why not accept that arcade match from Nagata? Or better yet, show all us Garou players just how high level you are and join the tournament in a couple weeks. Put your money where your mouth is for once. Show us youre as good as you say/THINK you are.

I’ve beaten players way better than Nagata Lock who do not use lag tactics. Me fighting him in the arcade would be like fighting your everyday novice in kof. And for the last time, I don’t even play Garou…and YOU were the one that said I was too good, back when I didn’t call you on lag tactics…and I don’t even play that game.

Here you go again, if someones style is working due to lag, then YOU need to learn how to deal with that. Why is that so goddamn hard for you to understand? And why is it that you are the only one that bitches about this problem, and no one else?

Oh, I adjust…I either stop playing (which I did against you), or I turtle in the corner waiting for them to do something stupid (but then again, I might as well just “play properly” by playing against a good player).

[EveryFlowerFlow]

why is that guy equating autofire and macros to VC’s and RC’s?

there’s a big freaking difference between taking advantage of something within the confines of game like roll canceling and gaining an advantage outside of it (autofire and the like).

[System_1]

why is that guy equating autofire and macros to VC’s and RC’s?

there’s a big freaking difference between taking advantage of something within the confines of game like roll canceling and gaining an advantage outside of it (autofire and the like).

Youre right, its just that some people cant tell the difference.

[Giby]

I rarely play online mainly because of lag and low level players. I’ll sometimes join in games with more than 2 people just to watch how people play, and I learned that jumping all over the place, mashing cB/cA, fireball spamming, turtle and wait to do a d+AB makes you one of the top players online. A lot of these players seem to have huge ego’s and constantly talk shit to the guy they beat, and complain about lag when they lose, but when they win, they don’t mention a thing about the lag messing the other person up.

I went to my friends house and she was playing Garou and Last Blade 2 against some guy(I dont remember the persons name, but he mentioned he was as good as/better than Kyokuji in LB2, who I hear is one damn good player in LB2.)The stuff he did would obviously never work offline in either game, and the game would stutter almost everytime she did a combo and never did shit when he did a combo(Ive also seen this happen in a lot of matches).She had 110 ping, and he had 10-20 ping in God Weapon. He claimed that it was from her side, then booted her after she beat him. The mind set of some players online is that of a 5 year old.

I used to play a lot back when some server in SoCal was around called ‘Genesis’ I only played people who had low ping so that we could get as little lag as possible. I haven’t been as active since they closed that server since there’s never been a reliable/long lasting West Coast server since that one shut down. Everyone tells me that even when a WC server pops up, people from the WC just go to GW since its always flooded with players.

I’ve heard of people using programed pads, or setting one button to input 2+ buttons. Doing that would be worse than abusing the delay imo. You’re not only playing in a bad(laggy) enviornment, but you’re pretty much cheating to win. The lag is there, so people have to deal with it or leave, I can’t deal with it, which is why I rarely play, but the programed pad stuff is bullshit.

[Serpent]

Emil’s first post and Milo’s last post were completely spot on. Didn’t read too much of what’s in between because it seemed like a pointless flame war.

The solution is, of course, to only play a small number of players who also don’t use lag tactics. There are very few of these players around. I myself primarily played with one other person. It is definitely annoying when someone that abuses kaillera play thinks they are better, especially when they are winning from lag spikes. The worst offender of this is probably someone both Emil and I know, who constantly talks himself up, and talks down about others and spreads misinformation about other players. Don’t name any names, I’m sure you know who I’m talking about.

The internet is really stupid a lot of the time. Fighting games aren’t worth playing in lag and against assholes, especially assholes that aren’t even good. In an arcade, usually nerds are forced to keep their mouths shut out of fear, and those strong enough to talk without fear generally do not care about games one bit, or are weak at the game anyway.

As has been pointed out, it is extremely illogical to claim an outside force (lag) should be accepted, but other outside forces (programmable pads, macros, turbo, etc.) should somehow not be accepted. The game was not “intended” to be played with any of those things. In addition, just because something is in a game, whether it be as a glitch or an overpowered character/tactic, it does not mean it was intended to be that way either. If something makes the game stupid, you should probably not play the game anymore, or just ignore that thing. Nobody put a gun to your head and said you need to play on kaillera. Nobody put a gun to your head and said you had to talk to the people on kaillera that you play against. You are free to play or not to play, where, when, and with whomever, just as they are free to play whatever way they want, or to complain about you doing something that is extremely stupid and would not work offline. Next time that happens, just say: “that’s fine, you don’t have to play me anymore”, and your problems are solved. Don’t come onto SRK and bitch and whine like some emo fag.

There is a WC server now that seems to be up a lot. Nobody seems to ever be on though. I’ll go on right now, I guess I could play A3 for a bit…I wanna try something.

[Kyokuji]

I dont remember the persons name, but he mentioned he was as good as/better than Kyokuji in LB2,

I’m curious to know who this is. If their ping was around 10ms and they were doing cross-ups like crazy, then it was probably lalla. Guy has a bad attitude when he plays anyone worse than him, but he’s full of shit if he was talking like he’s anywhere near #1.
Last time I fought him, I barely dropped a round to him.
He was better than me like 3 years ago, but he’s not even close now.

To clarify though, it’s pretty tough to lag abuse anything in LB2 unless your ping is really really high. If someone’s trying to low cross-up you over and over, jump straight up and use an early quick poke, don’t keep trying to switch block direction.
If you time it right, it should hit them, and even if you end up getting hit, it’ll bounce you away from them.
Just make sure you block high on the way down, or jump straight up and poke again when you land if you think they’re gonna jump in immediately afterwards.
Also make sure to air recover by hitting D ‘once’ after you get knocked into the air. It’ll give you more vertical distance and a chance to attack on the way down.

Most of the top level LB2 players are really nice guys, but the mid-level ones are all assholes I find, so I’m sorry your friend had a bad experience.
Her name isn’t EMMA by the way is it?

[Tea]

I guess what I’m getting at is that there are ways to draw a line. But defining ‘lag tactics’ has still seemed to evade me. An any attempts at defining it impose on other practical, essential elements of the game.
You can ban characters, you can ban certain glitches, you can ban macros, all because they’re easy to define and/or they break the game. We can all agree or disagree on what’s overpowered, but lag is an outside element that can’t be avoided. If something could take it away, we’d all be for it. You may come from somewhere that bans roll cancelling, but if you show up to a tourney that allows it and complain, you have only yourself to blame. Most know of the lag going into an online game.

[Kyokuji]

You may come from somewhere that bans roll cancelling, but if you show up to a tourney that allows it and complain, you have only yourself to blame. Most know of the lag going into an online game

I’d have to agree. While I do think it should be discouraged and frowned upon, it’s a waste of time openly complaining about it. We all know full well what we’re getting ourselves into when we log on. Think of the lag as a very poor extension of the game’s engine. It fundamentally changes the game mechanics, and thus what works and what doesn’t changes as well. I think this is a case of don’t hate the player, hate the game (or at least the twisted online version of it).

“I may not agree with what you do, but I’ll defend to the death your right to do it.”

As has been pointed out, it is extremely illogical to claim an outside force (lag) should be accepted, but other outside forces (programmable pads, macros, turbo, etc.) should somehow not be accepted.

That is a very very poor line of reasoning.

-Lag is unavoidable. The others are not.
-Lag is generated by the environment in which we play.
-Turbo, macros, programmable pads, etc are generated by the players themselves.

[Giby]

We all know full well what we’re getting ourselves into when we log on.

Exactly

When I first got into it I didn’t know there would be lag. Kaillera was my first online gaming thing since X-band. When I noticed input delay, I started bitching about it. Then when moves, blocks, parry’s, Just Defends, weren’t coming out, I got pissed, and later decided to stop. Even now when I play, I get pissed when I get input delay or random stuttering of the game, but I don’t complain about it as much as I used to. The main thing I hate is that it really kills my game, and it’s very very very rare that I win any match online in any game.

BTW, my friend isn’t EMMA, though I have heard of EMMA a few times being a decent Garou player.

[Serpent]

That is a very very poor line of reasoning.

-Lag is unavoidable. The others are not.
-Lag is generated by the environment in which we play.
-Turbo, macros, programmable pads, etc are generated by the players themselves.

Pause screen from disconnect of sticks during tournament play also fits under those categories, but it is recognized as a problem and steps are taken to fix it. Certainly, a win under those conditions is tainted. Console vs. Arcade has been debated repeatedly, with Arcade almost universally accepted as having been “better” tournaments back in the day. These things all fit under your categories, yet, the Evo organizers see fit to run tournaments not the way you think they should be run, but rather the way I and others have mentioned. I do not think you have shown why you claim it is “poor reasoning” to maintain my position.

I could go on, but it’s probably a waste of my time. I haven’t read this thread closely, but the original claim was some nonsense about “playing to win” in whatever environment that the game was in. People pointed out how dumb it was to say this. You chimed in but changed it, either backpedaled if you made the claim before, or added your own opinion if you hadn’t, I’m not going to check either way. Regardless, it seems weak to a lot of us, and people have given pretty thorough discussions of why. Maybe you should go back and read those posts until you understand them, and then try commenting again if you still feel the same way and have something new to add.

[MiloDC]

That’s what I was going to write.

… the original claim was some nonsense about “playing to win” in whatever environment that the game was in. People pointed out how dumb it was to say this. You chimed in but changed it, either backpedaled if you made the claim before, or added your own opinion if you hadn’t, I’m not going to check either way. Regardless, it seems weak to a lot of us, and people have given pretty thorough discussions of why. Maybe you should go back and read those posts until you understand them, and then try commenting again if you still feel the same way and have something new to add.

Right. Having had their lazy “anything goes” premise shot down, our opponents in this debate are latching onto one particularly divisive aspect of online gaming, i.e. lag/delay.

A couple of people have a big question mark over their heads about my equating VCs and RCs to autofire. My point was that, according to “anything goes” logic (the position offered at the very top of this thread), all three of those things are legitimate.

Now that the foolishness of the original point has been exposed, people are forced to justify the acceptance of some elements that fall under “anything” as they reject other elements that fall under “anything.” The common tactic now seems to be to fall back on the validity of lag/delay exploitation as the holy scrub writ, as if their position can be vindicated thusly. But the fact that they are now advocating the use of some tactics while condemnding others means that the original assertion has been shot down.

Speaking strictly of the lag/delay issue, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t accept it as an inescapable part of online play. We all put up with it, and I don’t usually mind it myself unless someone talks sh!t after abusing it. (When that happens, I generally don’t bother playing that person anymore on a server where he has the far superior connection.) The fact that it’s inescapable part of “the environment” hardly means that its abuse is something that I’m forced to accept as legitimate, any more than I would say that it’s fine for a tennis player with an injured knee to walk onto a court in Wimbledon. The other player is going to have a clear advantage, and that’s OK, but for the healthier player to abuse his opponent’s knee injury and then claim superiority of skill is just stupid.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

I would say that it’s fine for a tennis player with an injured knee to walk onto a court in Wimbledon. The other player is going to have a clear advantage, and that’s OK, but for the healthier player to abuse his opponent’s knee injury and then claim superiority of skill is just stupid.

you’re analogy assumes lag is a one sided phenomenon which is false. it affects both players. both players are suffering “injured knees”. whoever can take advantage of the others disadvantage can almost always assure victory. that’s a strat in sport, it just happens to work here also. is it a nice thing to have to deal with? no. but then a player with and injured knee doesn’t have to come out on to the court in the first place. likewise as it has been said here you don’t have to log on if you feel lag is going to destroy your gameplay that much

[MiloDC]

blah blah blah

you’re analogy assumes lag is a one sided phenomenon which is false. it affects both players. both players are suffering “injured knees”. whoever can take advantage of the others disadvantage can almost always assure victory. that’s a strat in sport, it just happens to work here also. is it a nice thing to have to deal with? no.

Whether it’s “a nice thing to have to deal with” is beside the point. What’s significant is that there is an inherent inequity involved in “the environment” of which some players take advantage, after which they claim to have superior skill. (That both players suffer an imperfect connection is irrelevant if one player’s delay is significantly greater than the other’s, which I run into all the time, playing as I do on East Coast servers from my home in Southern California.)

In truth, they don’t have superior skill. They simply have a superior connection. No amount of skill on the part of the player with the greater delay can decrease the time between his pressing a button and the execution of a maneuver.

but then a player with and injured knee doesn’t have to come out on to the court in the first place. likewise as it has been said here you don’t have to log on if you feel lag is going to destroy your gameplay that much

If I know that it will severely affect my game, I don’t bother playing. The severity of the delay varies, depending on the location of the server, the current condition of the server, the quality of my opponent’s connection, etc. Also, I keep a personal black list of trash-talking players who abuse my inability to react quickly enough in certain situations, and generally don’t bother playing against them. I don’t normally have a problem with someone taking advantage of my inferior connection (often, that’s what they have to do to win), as long as they keep their mouths shut. It’s a system that works well enough for me to enjoy myself.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Whether it’s “a nice thing to have to deal with” is beside the point. What’s significant is that there is an inherent inequity involved in “the environment” of which some players take advantage, after which they claim to have superior skill. (That both players suffer an imperfect connection is irrelevant if one player’s delay is significantly greater than the other’s, which I run into all the time, playing as I do on East Coast servers from my home in Southern California.)

In truth, they don’t have superior skill. They simply have a superior connection. No amount of skill on the part of the player with the greater delay can decrease the time between his pressing a button and the execution of a maneuver.

superior connection? someone hasn’t read the kaillera FAQ.

**
“it is important to realize in Kaillera that all players in a game will slow down to the delay of the slowest player. So in a 3 player game with two 10ms pings, and one 90ms ping, ALL players will experience 90ms delay.”**

even though you live on the west coast and the person you are playing only lives down the street from the server, you have the SAME delay. There shouldn’t be any excuses. The people who actually should be bitching are the east coast players because we’re the one slowing them down. also whether or not they have superior skill and they are making fun of you for losing is a moot point. douchebags and shit talker exist both online and offline and act the same way whereever they win

[Nagata_Lock_II]

I’ve beaten players way better than Nagata Lock who do not use lag tactics. Me fighting him in the arcade would be like fighting your everyday novice in kof. And for the last time, I don’t even play Garou…and YOU were the one that said I was too good, back when I didn’t call you on lag tactics…and I don’t even play that game.

You never cease to amaze me. You talk so much fucking shit and you haven’t done jack shit anywhere offline. I beat you online. I put out money to play you offline and you decline. Then you turn around and ASSUME that you even have a chance against me offline. You sit in this bubble of complete ignorance thinking you’re so great when you’re a fucking nobody. You think you’re great at KOF2K2? Why don’t you show up at ORBIT on Saturday. There’s a tournament going on, with lots of competition in the game you claim to be great at. Show me and everyone else that you’re so fucking tough. I’ll be there because I hit every monthly and support my community. Oh and I’ll place well in my tournament because I’m good at what I do offline against varying styles of play. Just ask all the players I shredded through at ECCXI.

People like you need to pull their head out of their ass. I’ve been playing competitively for five years. I have been playing SF and variations of it since it was first released. I picked up Garou on a whim last year and I turned out to be good at it. In fact I’m very good at it. I play and dominate online. See the difference here is that I play and dominate offline. I was able to beat guys like Arturo Sanchez and Justin Wong last year. I beat ALL of my local competition offline. I take the time/energy/gas/money to refine my skills and become a better player. That’s what better players do. We don’t sit behind our comp and talk shit while holding some divine pretense that we’re good when we haven’t proven anything.

As for the other points…

In game glitches like RC/Valle A3 combo of doom and autofire/program pads are not the same. They’re not even in the same ballpark. One is an exploitable feature within the game. The latter is something a player chooses to add onto their game in order to give them an advantage.

If people want to only play a select few others then be my guest. I have never been one to turn down a game against anyone online whether they’re a random scrub or powerhouses. I have to believe that each player is going to bring a style that I can either adapt to and defeat or be beaten by. Either way, I feel that I’ll gain something out of it one way or another. So I play everyone and feel I’m a better player for it.

Finding players with low ping doesn’t change the fact that other players are going to use the input delay to their advantage. I have never seen a completely input delay free game. It simply doesn’t happen because there is no 0ms server for everyone. I don’t see why if you’re placed in an environment wherein both players are at an advantage/disadvantage that people still have something to complain about. You adapt to your environment and play your best. Good player adapt, poor players complain and refuse to change.

[MiloDC]

The FAQ argument.

superior connection? someone hasn’t read the kaillera FAQ.

“it is important to realize in Kaillera that all players in a game will slow down to the delay of the slowest player. So in a 3 player game with two 10ms pings, and one 90ms ping, ALL players will experience 90ms delay.”

even though you live on the west coast and the person you are playing only lives down the street from the server, you have the SAME delay.

LOL! As if FAQs contain undeniable truths.

I don’t care what the FAQ says. My experience trumps the FAQ.

Why the hell would I trust the FAQ of incomplete and buggy MAME client/server code? I’ve been working professionally in video games for fifteen years; one tends to regard FAQs with more than a little skepticism. They aren’t Bibles.

Kenichiro Tanaka, whom I have met and played in person, wrote one of the best Vampire Savior FAQs on the Net, and even that has errors in it.

There shouldn’t be any excuses.

To someone who prefers the delusion that all things Kaillera are equal, I’m sure there aren’t any.

The people who actually should be bitching are the east coast players because we’re the one slowing them down. also whether or not they have superior skill and they are making fun of you for losing is a moot point.

Shrug It certainly becomes moot when I stop playing them. Arrogant scrubs don’t deserve my time.

Speaking of which, I’m done with this silly little thread.

[Emil]

You never cease to amaze me. You talk so much fucking shit and you haven’t done jack shit anywhere offline. I beat you online. I put out money to play you offline and you decline. Then you turn around and ASSUME that you even have a chance against me offline. You sit in this bubble of complete ignorance thinking you’re so great when you’re a fucking nobody. You think you’re great at KOF2K2? Why don’t you show up at ORBIT on Saturday. There’s a tournament going on, with lots of competition in the game you claim to be great at. Show me and everyone else that you’re so fucking tough. I’ll be there because I hit every monthly and support my community. Oh and I’ll place well in my tournament because I’m good at what I do offline against varying styles of play. Just ask all the players I shredded through at ECCXI.

lol, there are a variety of Canadian players I know who actually told me to come to T7 and whatnot, because they thought I’d be seriously good competition in that tournament. Some of them even said there was a lack of good kof2k2 players and that I would probably win. Personally, I still have some more things to work on in kof2k2 and I’m waiting to get a stick since I cannot use Angel correctly without a stick, but hey, they said it.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

LOL! As if FAQs contain undeniable truths.

I don’t care what the FAQ says. My experience trumps the FAQ.

Why the hell would I trust the FAQ of incomplete and buggy MAME client/server code?

hmm I dunno, I’d put Moosehead’s knowledge of net connections and coding over say, yours.

I’ve been working professionally in video games for fifteen years;

irrelevant

one tends to regard FAQs with more than a little skepticism. They aren’t Bibles.

who said they were.

Kenichiro Tanaka, whom I have met and played in person, wrote one of the best Vampire Savior FAQs on the Net, and even that has errors in it.

irrelevant, even Jchen’s sfa3 faq has errors. why? it’s not maintained. anti3d.com is.

To someone who prefers the delusion that all things Kaillera are equal, I’m sure there aren’t any.

i think you’ve confused us. you’re the one that equates lag advantage moves to use of macros and autofire. :rolleyes:

Shrug It certainly becomes moot when I stop playing them. Arrogant scrubs don’t deserve my time.

that’s great.

[Serpent]

Finding players with low ping doesn’t change the fact that other players are going to use the input delay to their advantage. I have never seen a completely input delay free game. It simply doesn’t happen because there is no 0ms server for everyone. I don’t see why if you’re placed in an environment wherein both players are at an advantage/disadvantage that people still have something to complain about. You adapt to your environment and play your best. Good player adapt, poor players complain and refuse to change.

That’s kind of funny, because the players you’ve mentioned, and pretty much all top players, absolutely hate online play and don’t consider it legitimate in the least. They consider online a “guessing game” and consider it stupid. Are they scrubs for not “adjusting” to the lag? These players simply refused to change their game to play online, so they just don’t play online. It’s one thing to claim people that go online and play “shouldn’t” complain, which I think is a stupid assertion in of itself, but you cross the line of stupidity when you claim a universal tenet that poor players complain and refuse to change. Am I to believe all the top players are poor players now? I have never met a top player that likes online play! Only ZBattle is even considered passable, and that’s because it’s worlds above MAME in terms of net coding.

I find it amazing that this is even a discussion. I find it even more amazing that none of you on that side of the argument have figured out that there is a difference in degree, and that lag tactics are something that become truly annoying the higher the lag is. At some point, it becomes ridiculous and unplayable. You can spam certain stupid moves over and over, throw in random moves and supers, etc., just because the risk/reward is so much greater skewed towards the person going on offense since reaction is virtually impossible in those settings. That is what poeple are truly complaining about. The “some degree of lag” you mention, while it is true that it changes the game from the real game, is still playable. You have to really make that distinction. But no matter what, if you were somehow to get a top player to play kaillera, and you beat them, you didn’t suddenly become a better player than them.

As for Rocklee, you are being stupid here. Why do you praise moosehead? That’s a logicial fallacy right there, instead of attacking the argument, you both attack the person and then appeal to authority. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the combination of those two so effortlessly as you have done right now. Milo’s experience is certainly relevant if mooshead’s is considered. Regardless, I have had access to the guys in charge of MAME and kaillera for years now, and have also played for years myself, so I certainly think Milo is right. Just use your common sense, you really think a person with 90 ping and a person of 2 ping have the same input delay? How do you think that’s even possible? Why do they have different pings then? What exactly do you think ping means? It directly shows the time difference between getting/giving information to the server. The server doesn’t wait for the information and then time it so both players get it back at the same time. It’s not like the server is sending out some information earlier to the higher ping person, that’d be a recipe for ridiculous desynching. Have you ever played any FPS games? High ping is more apparent there, and they run on a similar setup to kaillera.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

As for Rocklee, you are being stupid here. Why do you praise moosehead? That’s a logicial fallacy right there, instead of attacking the argument, you both attack the person and then appeal to authority. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the combination of those two so effortlessly as you have done right now. Milo’s experience is certainly relevant if mooshead’s is considered. Regardless, I have had access to the guys in charge of MAME and kaillera for years now, and have also played for years myself, so I certainly think Milo is right. Just use your common sense, you really think a person with 90 ping and a person of 2 ping have the same input delay? How do you think that’s even possible? Why do they have different pings then? What exactly do you think ping means? It directly shows the time difference between getting/giving information to the server.

I’m not prasing anyone. I’m saying Moosehead the contributer/writer of emulinker knows mroe about how kaillera works than milo. what’s hard to understand about that? have you played a person with a ping about the equal to yours then jumped in a game with someone higher? it’s slower, no arguement.

The server doesn’t wait for the information and then time it so both players get it back at the same time. It’s not like the server is sending out some information earlier to the higher ping person, that’d be a recipe for ridiculous desynching. Have you ever played any FPS games? High ping is more apparent there, and they run on a similar setup to kaillera.

Actually the opposite is true. Think about it. i have a 10ms you have 100ms. yes, ultimately i should recieve information faster but that would mean in 1 second im i’ve recieved 10 times more info. were no longer sending and recieving at the same synchronized rate, that is desync. if were both at 100ms there are no issues. ping isn’t an indication of the delay you are playing under but what you can play. two people can’t play at the 10ms if one is capped at 100ms, but two can play at 100ms. You bring up FPS’, in most games when ever someone with a real high ping joins what happens? the game slowdowns down to shit because the game has to run at a ping where everyone can stay in sync. the highest one