Combo timing pros/cons

i really dont understand why ppl are making such a huge deal out of this especially since most one frame links dont make or break characters… I use rufus and his 1 frame link is helpful as hell (st. short ~ st. Fierce) but i have seen alot of top level players rarely use it consisntently and they still win. alot of what makes someone good at SF is their ability to stay calm under pressure and react to situations without fear.

and seriously one frame links in this game dont make up a majority of what wins matches for characters (how many one frame links does it take to wreck shit with sagat when you have Tiger uppercut xx FADC xx Ultra?)

this has to be the most lax on execution SF title ever and people are still complaining about one frame links like they make or break someones ability to be top level in SF… has anyone seen Jwongs Rufus?

This is, frankly, ridiculous to say. The low-end of pro SC players have around 220-230 APM. No fighting game comes close to that sort of APM, let alone as what amounts to a base requirement. Yes, lower-end players can do the same actions slower and less efficiently, but that’s the issue. The slower players are losing valuable resources because they’re doing it slower, it will always be less than optimal for them and at the top levels this rift just grows larger and larger.

  1. I guess a lot of people play and enjoy the game for diff reasons. I personally think it’s jaw dropping to see top players hitting one big 1-2 frame link combos under massive pressure. I don’t think anyone would have been impressed if daigo beat wong spamming dial-in-combos when the opportunity presented itself.

  2. All the guys in MMA can beat my ass but not all of them have the form or style GSP does and subsequently not all of them have my respect.

  3. Starcraft has no unnecessary execution barriers at low level play and neither does SF4. There’s a large number of high level players that get by without the usage of any 1 or even 2 frame links, but the best of the best are the ones hitting the 1-2 frame links consistently. If it bothers you that much just pretend 1 frame links aren’t there and don’t use them.

Fair, everybody will be impressed by different things.

though this is exactly what I take exception to. The fact that people are understating what he did as a competitor, in favor of what he did as a technician. The fact that if he played with Justin to that same degree, but didn’t have an element of execution you’d write it off as “spamming in dial-in-combos”.

My point being that those skills relate to ass-beating skills. You don’t respect him because he managed to execute arbitrarily chosen man-made hurdles, you respect him because he could physically beat the other guy’s ass. He can “execute” things that have practical use. He’s better at a real-life skill. That’s why that kind of execution is respectworthy.

Not “execution” insofar as being able to hit completely arbitrary frame windows that some coder just made up.

Starcraft has no unnecessary execution barriers at high level play either. That’s the point of this. Any execution barriers in starcraft are completely necessary to gameplay, they didn’t just add arbitrary ones that could have been easily avoided.

Many of the 1 frame links in this game are critical to top level play. Take Ryu for example… for a starter character, he surprisingly has an ton of 1-2 frame combos that you see utilized quite often in high level play. The problem is relaxing those 1 frame combos might inadvertently create brand new 1 frame links that were previously not possible.

And to the guy talking about competitive CS. For the years that I played the game competitively… there’s been SOOO many situations where reacting 17ms earlier for the awp shot probably would have clutched out the round and sometimes even match for my team.

To summerize

SRK: “Everything is fucking easy, you just suck”.

There, no need to have this thread.

Inaccurate analogy, you are comparing your speed to another person, not some hard coded value in the game. A more accurate analogy would be “the bullet from your awp will only be fired if you press the left mouse button within a 15millisecond time frame after scoping with it”.

If every single 1-Frame link in SF4 was converted to a 2 or 3 Frame link instead, the top players will still be the top players, the scrubs will still be scrubs - everything will pretty much be the same as it is now. EXCEPT that now tens of thousands of more players will be able to add to their portfolio of moves/options the previous 1-Frame links which their characters can use but they had no choice but to ignore due to the insanely strict time requirement.

It’s not going to vastly alter the level of competitiveness of the game at all, while at the same time making higher levels of play more accessible to many more players.

It’s ridiculous that CAPCOM would spend years on developing these moves into the game, only to end up with maybe 5% of the people who buy the game using them. Out of the 2.5 million people who bought SF4 how many do you think regularly use 1-Frame links while playing ? 5% is probably too generous a number, probably more like 2%. Actually considering that nearly all people who play on pads don’t use 1-Frame links its probably more like 1%.

1 frame links are stupid and ESPECIALLY stupid in **this **game. “Hey lets losen up the execution on all the moves but throw in 1-frame links because.” That’s fuckin dumb and goes against the very vision of this game I.E. letting people who don’t dedicate their lives to SF play on a decent level. It’s doubly dumb in a game where over half it’s user base plays online. 1 frame reversals fine your not trying to hit one frame consecutively in a row. You are in combos and lag is gonna toy with your timing no matter how fuckin good you are and sadly most of us don’t have a Denjin Arcade or China Town Fair to throw down at. Those links should be at least 2 frames.

And besides how the hell can this be a bad thing? You’ll have less dog shit bad players to fight online (or in general) and this is bad how?

There are solutions around this:

What MuKen said. The fact that specials and particularly reversal specials get encouraged by the system, but a jab->fierce link requires 0.15 second timing encourages the turtle style and scrubby bullshit you see so much of online, and can be changed without changing the actual properties of moves.

I’d really like to see SF4:Dash use the BB system, but I’m not feeling hopeful.

Are there any 1-frame links that are required, not in the “It adds a bit of damage to an already decent combo,” but actually required to play a character successfully; to an end that not having said 1-frame link ingrained into your muscles means failure at playing the character?

Perhaps there are, I haven’t become intimate with every character, but I know that the several I’ve played don’t require them at all. Is it advantageous to be able to link a c. lp > c. mp for my Guile play? Absolutely, but alternatively, since I’m not comfortable with my own ability to do so consistently, I frequently ignore the option. Has it ever cost me the entire match? Not even close, not even on the “Wow that was really close” matches would it have mattered.

The general, run of the mill bread and butter combo’s though? Those don’t require absurd timing in the least, they’re extremely lenient in most cases.

To some extent it sounds like several people are asking, essentially, to have a keyboard that auto-inputs these commands for them, a button for your ultra, your super, your sonic boom, your flash kick, so that the only actual skill involved in the game is using them at the proper times with the entire focus of the game on the mind-games. Perhaps that would be fun, but to say that execution is not a skill is false. From the jist of your posts, Muken, that’s basically what you’d prefer to be playing. Where execution played no part. So long as there as gameplay to be proficient at, people will attempt to excel at it in order to gain the upper hand. Execution, or really, more accurately, reaction-time (since that’s all execution is) is key to the game. To say that people who excel at execution shouldn’t have an advantage over someone who can play superior mind-games is just as flimsy and unfounded as saying the opposite.

Executing complex combos, one frame links, and being able to do so consistently is a skill: it is an action that not everyone can do successfully, it requires practice, in fact it fits every definition of the word skill in accordance to Merriam Webster.

One wouldn’t be correct to say, “I am more skilled at you at Street Fighter 4 because I can execute a difficult combo under actual gameplay pressure on command.” however, since it’s only part of the game. Are they better at pushing out those combo’s than you? If that’s the case, yeah, they are. But that doesn’t by default make them a better player entirely nor should they try to boast such a claim.

Furthermore, exactly how many people in this thread right now even play, as previously put, “The best of the best”? I’m kind of baffled at how many people are concerned that bad players aren’t getting better because of “ridiculous timing requirements” of this game; bad players aren’t getting better because they don’t have the quality of character that makes you a good player. I’ll never, ever be excellent at this game, at most I’d shoot for not sucking, anything above not sucking I’d be pleased with, and I’m pretty far from that as it stands now.

The very, very bottom ring of players that I play don’t lose because of execution, it’s straight up lack of knowledge of the game or the inability to adapt to their opponents playstyle, predictable patterns and excessive whiffing.

If you’re at a level of play where winning the match hinders on your ability to capitalize on 1-frame links, you’re playing a lagless environment with top competition: at that point, you’ll absolutely be able to regularly hit 1-frame links.

Here’s some that I can think of:

Rufus standing LK -> standing HP

Abel forward+MK -> dash -> standing HP -> rekkas

Blanka crouching MK -> far standing LP

Akuma far jab -> far roundhouse

All I can think of now. I’m sure there are more. Anyway, one-frame links are not as bad as you guys say in this game. I found one-frame links really frustrating for a while, because I could get the timing SOME of the time, but not all of the time. Now that we know about plinking, I can do them a lot more consistently.

Seriously, folks. Learn to plink. It makes these things a lot easier.
I was thinking about making a tutorial teaching plinking and kara-throwing (they’re the same sort of thing) but I feel really weird talking to a camera.

How would you have any idea, since you don’t use them? We’re talking about an entirely different tool here, how can you soundly state that it wouldn’t have changed the outcome of any your matches to have it? That’s frankly absurd, you have no way of knowing how the game tree would play out differently if you had an extra tool in your arsenal, and to think that not a single game would be affected implies either that you’ve played an extremely small number of games, or believe in highly skewed probabilities.

Discussing your hypothetical, what exactly would be wrong with that? 3d fighters have many characters that never have any execution more complicated than tapping a direction and pressing a button, and yet manage to be extremely deep as well. It seems that you are simply hoping to argue against it by making it sound sensational and extreme.

It sounds to me like you have this image in your head where the only components to the game are “execution” and “mental chess”, and thus without the execution the game will become slow and boring. Even in games where execution is fairly simple, there is still great room not only for mind-games, but tests of reflex, reaction, and adaptation. The games will by no means become slow.

I don’t believe anybody said execution is not a skill.

All I have said is that it is not the skill that brings us to appreciate this game. And it is not the skill that makes us respect the top level players. If it were, we’d also be playing and following competitive guitar hero and ddr. We are here to see competitive skills, not single-player skills that you acquire through hours of repetitive motions in training mode.

That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as we continue to make games where there are tight windows, online play will never be able to simulate real play. And thus high level competition will never play online, thus enabling you to say “at the level of play where it matters, you won’t be online”.

Not all 1-frame links can be plinked. In particular, no link involving a jab can be plinked, because jab doesn’t outprioritize any other normal in the input system. Whatever you try to plink it with won’t count as a jab.

It’ll be dope in about 2 more months when 4/5ths of every 09’er gets tired of the game and stops posting.

It’s actually about 10 times less than that, approx 0.015 of a second.

Being able to tie your shoelaces is a skill as well. Arguing in favor of something that is a skill is stupid, arguably anything can be classified as a skill.

What is of importance is finding a level of balance between competitiveness and accessibility. You could make a soccer goal 20 meters wide, but that would be imbalanced towards accessibility, or you could make it 1 meter wide - but that would be imbalanced towards competitiveness. It’s current size, approx 7.5 meters wide is a perfect balance between competitiveness and accessibility - a satisfactory value for anyone from teenagers to professionals.

It’s no surprise that the most successful e-sport games out there have met and understood this level of balance needed.

This game has it bass akwards IMO. Special movies are way too easy to (accidentally) do, but block strings are hard to do perfectly, allowing scrubs to mash out moves in-between if you mess up.

It’s still a fun game, but I think it’s a lame design choice…

Please do, I havn’t quite gotten the hang of it. Some visual aid might help.

Check the frame data again, it’s probably not a true block string.

AFAIK there are hardly any true blockstrings in SFIV. Hit stun =/= Block stun and fucks everything up, and worse reversal window is huge. This is the first fighting game I’ve ever gotten serious about, but I don’t remember it being like this in prefious SF’s…

Apologies MuKen, unless you were not trying to be sarcastic by putting skill in quotes. (That’s how I read it and assumed it was implied)