Actually they can’t reversal jump or backdash. Assuming decent os on your part, you catch the backdash and hit the prejump frames. They can get out when they expect the next CH, or if they guess the throw attempt correctly. But because you have a move that resets momentum towards you, “blocking and teching properly becomes very difficult”. If I had 5 good throw setups in a row, good luck doing that. But like I said, it will be alot like bison’s scissor pressure, except much better rewards for hitting and less chip. If they keep this, AND ex scarlet’s AA invul. Vega will be at LEAST high tier, and worse he is going to SCRAPE a large portion of the cast. Neither change is so crazy, together it’s quite a lot though.
Edit: And Vega has been MAD boring in many games and matchups through his lifespan. He isn’t a “footsie” character, he dominates footsies in most games without trying. Winning in footsies with vega is like bringing a Ferrari to a red light and blowing past a Civic.
And what os is this exactly? I’m curious as to what os beats a focus cancelled reversal. Throw os sHK only works on some jumps (primarily neutral jumps) and certainly doesn’t hit pre-jump frames. Back dash is only guarenteed if you os sweep or have the opponent cornered. And os’ing sweep probably isn’t a good idea after CH. Any smart player with a life lead is going to just sit on down back and wait for you to do anything other than block and simply do something that beats both your frame traps and throw attempts… reversal.
And seriously, why do ppl keep thinking that EX ST which costs meter, can’t be FADC, has a bad AA angle, has a 4 frame start up, and doesn’t cause an untechable kd is going to really be useful for ANYTHING other than to stop pressure once or twice a round? No its going to suck as an AA. Same as it does now. Its not going to shoot him way up in the tiers for more than a couple months at best. If he shoots up in the tiers its because of other things.
Regardless… even if he were to get every buff remotely rumored and didn’t get nerfed he STILL wouldn’t break top 10. Why? He has no offense. Meterless RCF pressure is gone. CH pressure is barely there. He has no real block strings. His ENTIRE offense revolves around Kara throw. Otherwise Vega is just sitting there waiting to whiff punish. Either via frame trap or the opponent doing something stupid.
Every offensive opportunity you have with Kara throw puts you at risk of losing 1/3rd to 1/2 health while you gain the reward of 1/4th to 1/3rd health if you have meter. 1/5th if you don’t. No matter how you look at it the reward you get for being right is going to be less (both less likely and less in scale) than the potential damage you risk suffering for being wrong. Invincibility on EX ST will do nothing to change that calculation regardless of what buffs or nerfs accompany it. It definitely isn’t going to help in the AA department. You’re either not going to have charge when you need it or its going to lose to the same situations it loses to now. I-frames on EX ST is WORTHLESS unless it lasts all the way through active frames.
The ONLY reason Vega will be considered “high tier” with all these buffs is because we’ve been playing with a handicap compared to the rest of the cast for 5 years making it work. Remove the handicap and yeah, its likely you’ll see quite a few Vega players doing well.
What about the addition of delayed wake up to the game? Doesn’t that negate the need for a decent anti-air? As of right now, Vega is looking REALLY strong. We no longer need to worry about vortexes, that in addition to the buffs he received should easily place him in a top tier position.
Is that cr.HP buff really gonna give him a reliable AA Vegaman? A reliable AA normal has been my #1 want/need for so long :’( . He should have a AA normal on par with sak cr.HP or better since vega is supposodley a so called "footsie / run away character. I’ll definitely take that over i-frame ex scarlet terror as a trade since i-FR ex ST goes against this character playstyle.
I would be perfectly fine with godlike Footsies/Defence on land and from the air while having a ass wake-up game, that is as much balance it can get from a footsie/runaway character vega is.
Also im surprised nobody from Capcom decided to take away the stupid claw coming off thing from blocking… The only character in the game that gets penalized from doing something smart. (-_-)"
Well you need to seperate anti air from reversal. EX ST is a reversal that can sometimes be used to anti air.
Vega suffers horrendously in 3 areas currently. 2 need to be fixed to make him viable:
-He has a weak offense. If Vega loses the life lead to a smart opponent it is short of a miracle for him to get it back.
-He cannot keep people out. This is where he needs a grounded anti air (cHP joker). The opponent has no reason to play or even attempt to play footsies because of the likelyhood of jumping over. A grounded AA forces the opponent to get in on the ground or make a proper (and fair) read
-He cannot get ppl off. This is due to a lack of an invincible reversal (EX ST).
The alpha build solves the last 2 problems. But he will STILL have serious issues when he doesn’t have the life lead as his only 3 ways to open ppl up are PoM, CH, and Kara Throw… PoM is 70 damage at a risk for 20 frames of startup and no safe follow up. CH is getting nerfed although it can be followed by a combo. That leaves Kara throw.
Remember no more safe jumps, corpse hop set ups, izuna vortexes, cross up jHP or wall dive set ups… nothing. You have to eyeball it now. So yeah the opponent now has a harder time pinning Vega down but Vega has a harder time getting solid damage in as well. Particularly considering focus attacks are Vega’s bane and will only get worse with red focus.
Now if they were to fix all 3 issues THEN I could agree with the over buffing crowd. Until then, if you think he’s overbuffed then you’re not playing against any decent competetion or you don’t know how to fight against Vega. Its really that simple.
cHP buff will give him an AA slightly less reliable than juri’s but with much more recovery. It won’t work against ppl inside cMK range. You’ll still need to jump or auto correct ST/U2 to AA that (or go under their jump with U1 like I do). It would need a hit box/hurt box change as well to reach sak status. I don’t think its necessary though.it does 110 damage. That’s a lot for 1 hit that sets up a reset and trades work in Vega’s favor
i said this many times, cr.hp works on yun’s dive kicks and jumping mk, it’s not reliable because you need to be on point. with longer active frame, it’ll make that even easier. someone already tested that adding just 1 more active frame and anti air ryu’s jumping hk, one of the best jump in normals.
ex st being bad because active frames don’t overlap active frames? also wrong, remember, start up is 4 frames, but you need to remember, that means scarlet terror STARTS on the 4th frame, so yes, it does overlap with the active frames. example fei long has 5 invincible frames on mk and hk dp. the only time it’ll trade is that you do it too early. you need to activate it when they almost touched you. so the angle of ex st is also not relevant. since you’ll be doing it so low, you’ll hit the guy 100% of the time. if he just so happens to crossup, since you’re doing it so late, it’ll auto correct.
safe jumps and crossup hp setups are still relevant. just like soft knockdowns, you’ll have setups that will be invented that will cover people that don’t tech, just look at xian’s gen. you didn’t wake up? whatevs, whiff a normal, jump in for an ambiguous crossup. this just means we’ll be making extra setups for those who stays on the ground, like perfect meaties etc. if the delayed frames are even longer, we can use our old corspe hop shenanigans.
Its not like we are going to AA Gen, Chun Li (that now has a jump speed same as our own), Claw or even a Ryu that has a brain and use jiHP instead as he should be. People will eat it alive with their jump ins just like they do now.
Sorry, you are not beating this with 2, 4 or 20 active frames on your crHP.
The +2f active frames will definetely help against dive kicks and Gief. With the nerf in his jiHP and our crHP getting more 2f its pretty much granted that you will trade with him provided that he is jumping around the crMP range (which is where he will have to try to jump).
Wow … honestly … I was really not expecting complaining about the changes in this sub-forum … are you guys serious ???
Or are here just some guys that always and ever complain !?
I think this changes are pure dope … !!!
I love Vega and agree that he has/had some problems in the current meta-game … BUT … still bitching in here that he is “still” to weak ? … comon … get out of here !!!
Delayed wake up is already a big big buff for Vega and his super strong back-dash … and all the other stuff is crazy … not that I dont like it … but …
cr.lp +5 on hit --> link into st.lk --> link into Ultra 2 --> easy 2f links in nearly everything
5f AA / Anti Fireball / Comboable Ultra 2 ??? Wow !!!
A true Reversal
Frame Trap / Full Screen Punish Ultra 1
Usefull Super
This game will change to much more footsie battles … I dont see any roadblock for Vega to become a top tier char …
You can’t have it both ways. Either safe jumps are still relevant making most AA attempts with EX ST foolish, or safe jumps are not relevant so smart opponents aren’t going to jump in as much. Either way this doesn’t solve the issue of having charge when you need it.
As for the angle, you’ve never had an opponent jump and position themselves to land right smack in the center of your head? Odd cause those are the ones I see the most. Its exactly the same situation as guile and why I can both beat his “invincible” flask kick jumping in and jumping back all day. That’s not even looking at empty jumps that have no trip guard. That’s why it has a bad angle. You’re going to encounter a lot of situations where you need to delay ST as long as possible but the minimum time you need to delay will overlap with the time you’re in either hit or blockstun (likely hitstun since you’re crouching). That’s why it needs to cover all or at least until his feet are at the 3 o’clock position or it needs a major hitbox/hurtbox adjustment that makes it virtually invincible up to that point. That’s just to make it decent. Without FADC capability it’ll never actually be good.
Not much has been said about delayed wake up but I’m under the impression its variable between something like 10 to 30 frames based on how long you hold the buttons.
And no Haz it won’t beat everything. Things like sagat’s and dud’s elbows will blow right through as well. But it will cover the majority of jump in normals and help vs dive kicks (except vs jaguar tooth which it destroys now anyway)
You now have a comeback factor with the ability to combo into ultra 2 instead of only being able to blow up stupid mistakes which never happened in tourney play.
You can pressure your opponents into a combo ultra 2…
You have a situational anti air when you play footsies cr.hp.
You can now turtle with Vega as a viable strategy when you have ex meter.
I want to hear the fleshed out changes with RCF - 8 on hit just does not sound correct to me.
You could honestly turtle and use CH and RCF entirely in certain matchups.
i was talking about using it as a normal anti air, not as a wake up move. as a normal anti air, it’ll beat anything as long as you delay it. people won’t be jumping at your center at that point. it only works on setups. unless he’s adon…but even so, since it’s not exactly above your head, you can still delay and it will still auto correct. if it doesn’t auto correct, it’s a free escape. adon can’t really punish at that point anyway. yeah, you can’t using it anytime you want, but the point is that IF you have charge and meter, they can’t jump. with 42 frames of charge, it’s a lot easier to use than other characters charge anti air like flash kick or ex spinning bird
as for the safe jump, i was talking about it separately, not relating to the ex st. just saying how safe jumps itself is still a relevant technique even with the wake up mechanic.
If Vega has meter…
If Vega has charge…
If the opponent isn’t jumping in with a normal that has the hit box entended down and the hurtbox extended away…
If the opponent doesn’t change the direction or trajectory of their jump in…
That’s a lot of ifs.
Your reward (ie. opponent’s risk):
70-180 damage depending on when you hit it.
Techable kd with little to no set up after.
Situation reset
Your cost:
1 bar
42 frames of lacking manueverability and the ability to block high.
Your risk:
Opportunity cost associated with that 1 bar
A punish that hurts you more than your EX ST would have done to the opponent.
An unfavorable reset
Now why exactly can’t the opponent jump? A better question… why shouldn’t the opponent jump?
There’s almost no reason to use this for an AA except as an auto correct… which will likely only score 70 damage… because we have meterless options. Even more so since we gain cHP.
Sure it’ll be sorta useful against akumas demon flip or rufus’s ex messiah follow ups or maybe even cross up tatsu. But every one of these you do is giving up 220+ damage from an EX FBA combo or 300+ damage from an EX RCF combo that will likely be able to combo into both ultras, or focus breaking EX SHC which I predict will be needed a lot more than it is now.
The most mileage from EX ST will be as a get off me move… which thanks to delayed wake up isn’t going to be that much of an issue for Vega now anyway.
I doubt well keep all our buffs but if we have to give something up I got no problem letting i-frames on EX ST go
Ok then they should just take away ex i-frame ST and make cr.HP dmg 100 with a fix hit/hurt box for close jump ins and a fixed far s.HK hit box buff that wont really trade as much as it does now and do prolly only 90-95 dmg for one ond hit.
That should be reasonable right for his AA while we only have delayed knockdown for his wake up defence against vortex and mix ups?
Should there be any footsie ground normals that should be fixed/buff for high level tournie purporses besides deleting cl.LK?
Also Vegaman what changes to Vega that will be able to give him a comeback factor or better combos you have in your mind?
