hit and run is pretty much defense, like dhalsim. he also has no decent reversals either. sf4 is more defensive compared to other games. just learn to block. if you’re getting pressured and on the ground, that is YOUR fault for letting them in. learn to space your normals so you’re never in that situation. so what if you had a proper reversal, you think people aren’t gonna bait it? you think they don’t have setups to break the ST even if it’s invincible? if his normals are not long enough, then play dhalsim. learn to use you kara throws and CH mixup to pressure. if are getting focused, st.hk. you say st.hk doesn’t reach to do 2 hits. in that case, they are randomly doing focus from a stupidly far range where they can’t hit you anyway. punish them after they dash. instead of complaining what he lacks, you should try and find ways to use what he DOES have. watch how other vega plays. they play the keep away game. watch how when the opponent gets in, he loses a bunch of health. this isn’t specifically vega. many characters when being pressured by a great player will still be stuck blocking.
How could you honestly say SF4 is a defensive game? Are you serious??? You’re playing the same game I am, right? This is the problem I’ve seen on this board. Someone says Vega could use some extra tools the rest of the cast has then other players say “well it’s YOUR fault,” well not shit it’s my fault I let someone in. But when the other player does the same attack to get in and I’ve tried all my options (normals, specials, neutral jumps, back jumps, different spacing) and they still get in, then what the hell am I supposed to do? Other than watch as they jab combo their way to a knock down, combo me off the ground, toss my poor corpse into the air off a wall, and rinse and repeat because I now have to be forced to do nothing but block. I’m not even saying a reversal would help, I mean it COULD help and would be nice to have but I’d rather have normals with better hitboxes than what he has to truly keep them out rather than trade unfavorably or just get out right beat and set up for jab combos all day. I think it would be fair to give him higher priority normals since he doesn’t have high combo potential, doesn’t get high FADCU potential off hit confirms like DPxxFADCxxUltra, doesn’t have a cross up, doesn’t have a lot of juggle potential, can’t Ultra off a throw, can’t Ultra off a Super, has a worthless Super, and doesn’t have a reversal. I don’t even know if better normals would even help, I just hope he gets something that puts him more in line with the SF4 engine.
You’re 100% right though, it’s my fault I picked Vega since the SF2 days, who is just pure ass tier in this game. Thanks.
Claw is not ass in this game. Clearly he is not great either. He is “okish” with some matchups that are worse than they should be.
You should be able to win over 75% of your online matches with him. Period.
take a look a at kof. rush down. almost all the time. if vega was there, he would be dead. 3rd strike, everyone rush down, with overheads and the like. SSF4 is a much slower game by comparison. if you go in like a kof player, you’ll die. this game is mostly like chess, not all scissor paper rocks.
it really depends on matchups on how easy someone gets in on you. dive kicks characters is what you’re angry about. we all are. you just have to play smarter than them. but if someone like gief gets in on you, it really is your fault for not keeping him out. there are many ways to get out pressure without specials: focus tech back dash and kara throw tech. try them. research them.
vega’s normals are already really good. there’s no such thing as priority in this game. it’s all a matter of who’s move came out first and what are their hit boxes. i would like you to tell me what normals vega trades with on the ground? cause it’s most likely you are using the wrong normals (cr.mp losing to gief’s st.mp for example).
like i said before, vega is a defensive character. giving him crossup mixup options after izuna drop is just pure insanity and broken, we already got jumping hp to crossup on seth juri and rufus. when we start the ball rolling, it’s pretty unfair there already. imagine that on the whole cast after every izuna drop combo which you can deal out from 1/4 screen away. nobody can do that.
what’s killing vega are the dive kick matchups or pretty much anyone that has a aerial move that breaks your defense (dives and makoto’s axekick) and people with long normals like chun li. don’t know what to do against chun li to make the match favorable, but against the rest, a solid anti air normal is what we want.
cr.jab vs Cammy’s cr.jab/st.jab. Somehow, her jabs beat mine at nearly full range. Me and my friend just started laughing, because we both couldn’t believe it. Wasn’t just my eyes playing tricks on me, he saw the same thing. This was local play, too, not online. Looking at the hit box data it shouldn’t… I don’t know how it beat it, you’d think they’d whiff each other but her jab outright beat mine. Of course, it would help to have his hit boxes extend to the entire tip of the claw, would take a little pressure off worrying about getting traded on a poke or worse, simply beat.
Any character with a really long range jump in like Cammy or Chun-Li pretty much kill any chance I have at keeping them out with a st.normal or neutral jump. Of course ST isn’t really that hot at it either, and the last thing I want to be doing anyway is sitting like a duck charging something when I’d rather be mobile. Then there are all the characters with long range low pokes that stop me from walking back or jumping away, like Ryu or Chun, who can then cancel those low pokes to fireball which negates any focus armor I could get and open me up. Of course, I can’t poke cr.strong, st.fierce, PoM, or CH over those low attacks anyway, so what use is having that range? If I poke and any of those characters focus attack it, then they get to safely dash away because Claw doesn’t have a fireball or an option to follow up without meter. Not that I want one of course, I just over all hate the FA mechanic to the game.
Dive kicks are problematic to a degree, but a quick FA helps however, doesn’t seem to recover fast enough to not get hit by a fast jab on the opponents recovery since doing FA in response to a dive kick doesn’t give you level 2 crumble, you have to rely on level one against someone who does deep dive kicks. Maybe dashing out would help but then they could still hit me on my dash recovery. Still can trade with dive kicks at worse, I haven’t seen any dive kicks that just outright beat anything I can throw out. The problem comes from when Claw recovers since he still lost spacing, and is prone to jab pressure and cross up pressure, which could be relieved a little if ST would hit closer and lower, and not be jabbed out of. I don’t have a problem with ST being long range low poked out of, but up close jabs, I mean come on. I wouldn’t even want ST to beat stuff clean on wake up, I’d settle for a trade.
I honestly don’t see what would be so bad about having a cross up option after EXFBA>ID, it’s not like half the cast doesn’t have the same kind of options after juggle strings with potential to continue for good damage. All I’d really want is better hit boxes on my normals plus a reliable close and far (st.round house kinda works…) AA, and maybe a cross up or instead of a cross up have PoM and CH considered airborne and hop over low pokes if Capcom decided to be generous. It’s just extremely frustrating to see the plethora of tools 75% of the cast has that Claw doesn’t.
that’s a reflection of how ass people are online… not a reflection of how good Vega is.
Claw is not ass in this game. Clearly he is not great either. He is “okish” with some matchups that are worse than they should be.
^This is a reflection of how good Vega is.
#1 of course that will hit you, it starts up faster and she chains it without hitting anything. eg cammy can does 10 cr.lp per second and vega does 3. so of course hers will beat vega most of the time. it hits your start up. this is the general rule for everyone. dhalsim can be jabbed out of his long arms for example. the gief example i made is different. cr.mp loses because of the hitbox/hurtbox properties of both moves. if someone is spamming cr.lp, CH it. you’ll trade, you lose 30, he loses 80. if you’re connect, you combo with ST to do 240. if cammy wins, it’s still 30, cause she can’t combo from just spamming cr.lp and it’s not a reliable way to stop 99% of most attacks. extending hitbox will not solve anything. if you really worried about moves like that trading, kara grab her. you guys really shouldn’t be playing like this anyway…
#2 their low pokes are not suppose to hit you. it means you are too close. you should be able to hit him from cr.mp distance. wait for them to poke, make sure your spacing is good so that if ryu does cr.mk, it just misses you. react with a cr.mk to hit his retracting leg. this is called counter poking, basic footsies. can’t help with cammy, she’s just cammy, even if you’re ryu, you can’t DP her anyway cause she can just jump and do nothing, ryu’s DP will whiff. chun is bad not because of her jump in, it’s because she has great pokes that can knock you down and you won’t be able to get out of the mix up as easy as she can out of yours. plus CH whiffs on her if she spams cr.lk, which will lead to an ultra. CH is also a great too not just to counter poke, but to use if you predict they WILL poke. not a great way to use it, but that’s what you can do, and it will beat them.
#3 cr.hp will beat out or trade with yun and yangs dives. or far st.mp if you’re far enough. general strategy is to be far enough where you can react to the dives and hit them out of the air like a air throw or jump hp/mp/mk. if you have charge, then use ST, but if you watch vega’s play against rush down characters, we don’t sit still and charge, we move around, so stop thinking about charging for ST. especially with dive characters. if they do happen to dive and you block it, focus tech back dash the 2nd jab. don’t worry TOO much about spacing with vega. once you get a combo in, space don’t matter. combo into RCF will push them into the corner. with izuna drop, you can decide where the opponent will go. just make sure you can at least get one combo in.
#4 vega’s raw damage is one of the highest in the game becuase of his reliance of ex meter. it only takes 2 wrong guess for your opponent to be stunned. all characters that CAN crossup (except cammy/evil ryu) needs at least 3-4 resets before they can stun. defense characters shouldn’t have such a strong vortex game such that power characters shouldn’t have just good normals to start big combos. or vortex characters needing more health.
if you have trouble with certain moves of other characters, go training room and make the cpu spam it out. see what you can do against it. don’t think of just raw moves beating other raw moves, think of how you can also EVADE those moves and punish them.
I agree that Claw isn’t ass in the game, but in a game where sooooo many other characters are just plain good, being okish makes for very frustrating matches. I don’t see how guys can say that giving Vega a couple tools will make him broken, when so many other characters have those tools and more but are just considered good.
And reading the above posts made me ponder since Vega is a defensive character in this game (for the first time), why is his unique defensive move pretty much unusable? KKK and PPP flips might as well not exist, it only useful in punishing scrubs who telegraph their high recovery specials/supers/ultras. In competitive play, it has very very little use.
the reason why i call the crossup hp broken is because of how easy it is to stun and kill rufus/seth/juri when you can actually do it on them. that single change makes him from a defensive character to a vortex character, except he has more health, stun and more range than all other vortex characters.
I usually use KKK in tournaments to bait out dp frame traps and dp wake up options. it scares the crap out of ken/ryu players. they have 2 bars, but they risk of getting comboed themselves. it changes the flow of the game. same with seth. he can’t mixup vega with spd/srk like he can on everyone else, he needs to play very carefully.
i use PPP once every 100 or so matches to surprise people like abels etc to get out of the mixup. they don’t expect such long flips cause you moslty use the short one. they also need to reconsider their OS options as well as both flips have different recoveries. not something to bet on, but there are tactical uses, just not all the time. it’s mainly for baiting and mind games
Niah, I’m starting to think you don’t read my posts. Not once did I say I was trying to jab Cammy as she was next to me jabbing me. I’m talking about max range cr.jab vs max range Cammy cr.jab/st.jab. The tips hit, and hers beat mine. Explain that, because that isn’t what the hit boxes show. I’m not talking when she’s right next to me, of course her faster jabs will beat mine, that makes sense. It wasn’t just me that saw it. Why am I repeating myself?
Also, CH I’ve been hit low out of tons of times. If I think to myself, hey, I’m at a good range to pressure with CH, do it, and they throw out a cr.forward and it hits me on the foot even though my foot is off the ground. That’s what I’m talking about, but hey Ibuki can just hop over my cr.jabs. cr.forwards, cr.strongs or any other low attack I toss at her. Again, I’d just like SOME of the tools 90% of the cast has to whoop ass with that I don’t.
I’ve played SF since SF2 came out in the arcade days, I know what counter poking and all that shit is, I don’t need a run down of that stuff like I’m a newbie.
i know what you’re saying, i know you’re jabbing at max distance, it’s why i gave dhalsim as an example. at max range, you can jab his hands. that’s how hitbox works. hitbox and hurtbox overlaps most of the time in normal moves.
You can’t use CH up too close, you need to space it. at the point where ryu’s cr.mk JUST misses you. CH actually makes you go backwards a bit, so you can even be a bit closer. if you’re at cr.lp distance, CH isn’t a good idea to be used. at that point, you need to use cr.lp/cr.mp and Kara throws
Moonchilde, you clearly have A LOT to learn, and we could help you. But that bitching nature of you makes me and everyone sick.
Also, go suck and complain somewhere else, this thread is about Claw buffs in USF4.
I’m done being polite, damn it. You are obviously playing horribly to get those results, if I can beat most of the guys that I face (and I am by far not alone, trust me), you should be able to do as well. As far as I can tell, your Vega there has the same tools than mine Claw here.
---- Meanwhile, I’ll make an useless attempt to get the thread back to the topic. ----
That Red Focus nonsense would be terrible for Claw. Even the “both ultras at once” thing will be a nerf to the guy…
i just realize something…if both ultra’s really are accessible, theres a slight chance one might not get the ultra to come when needed…eg i want db, df, db, uf+KKK, not db, df, db f+KKK!!!
Well, uf + KKK shoud trigger U1 instead of U2, the same way that db uf PP triggers EX SHC instead of EX RCF. So I don’t think that it should be a problem.
Either way, I can’t think of one matchup that would become easier.
oh no, i mean as in personal execution error, haven’t there been times you get ex St instead of ex fba??? you’re off by just ONE directional input? everytime that happens i’m just…ARGH. not to mention CH instead of ST. or sweep instead of CH…could be just me, haha
Oh, yeah, that could happen.
But anyway, with the recent news (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/oct/24/capcom-confirms-red-focus-and-usage-both-ultras-ultra-street-fighter-4/)…
Lets all mash this : http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
I know you guys want it.
And lets go get back to the reality:
Seth is one matchup that it seems that using both Ultras might be viable. As we can U2 close fireball and stHP and also U1 far fireballs and teleport mixups and shit.
Maybe against Viper as well? I don’t know, U1 lands so easily in that matchup that I would just have it to get that big chunk of damage.
Anyway, we need numbers. How much of damage penality it will suffer will determine if its viable to use another ultra. If its not much I could see going UW very viable against Sagat and the shotos.
But they will be getting more benefits from using both ultras than we will. Thats for sure.
It’ll happen no more than when we get EX ST instead of EX FBA. I wouldn’t sweat it.
As far as damage reduction it looks pretty significant. 60% roughly http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KrUcZyQUl6Y#t=44
I’d rather have the damage than the selection. I could MAYBE see it making the dive kick characters matchup easier but that a very very big maybe. I will most likely stick with U2 for dive kickers and U1 against everyone else
The red focus mechanic doesn’t look good for Vega at all. But there’s still a small chance we can get significant tweaks to Vega to compensate for it.
Interesting to say the least.
There a few match ups where I would choose UI over UII alone now (Viper and Sim, maybe Seth) and a couple where I would use both (Juri, Gouken, Akuma, Sakura?) but a (buffed) UII will still be the one to go for me.
Regarding red focus: Looks like I will cancel a lot more normals in flip in the future 
“Block strings” that ended in RCF will be hurt al lot. Vegas Footsie game in general not so much I think since you are too close anyway if you get hit by that. But a red dash cancel is another free way to get in on Vega twice a round (if the cost of two meters remains) though… All in all I am a little bit worried. Does EX SHC breaks armor?
On a defensive note: I am not sure, would this help a cornered Vega at all? Maybe it will work like a FADC-able invincible reversal (at the cost of two bars you can stop the momentum) but you still can get thrown out of it…
Vega has one of the worse stuns in the game, around 900, second only to Akuma. Most if not all of low stun characters have invincible DP to lessen that risk though. Most womans have 950 stun, including Cammy.
The only thing Vega has here is raw damage, which is indeed important in punish/jumps situations. =)
About sHK, it’s not a reliable focus breaker, as a lot of character do lower their hurtbox while focusing. Which makes 2nd hit whiff into half a second recovery… =p
The red focus is precisely made to be used for Vega, as it will now be possible to interrupt annoying chained jab strings (and this range is where he is at his weakest) and requires meter. Shoto like character do rely a lot on meter to combo into ultra or focus DP… but Vega doesn’t need it as badly as long as he can save one bar. Whereas, that possibility is uninteresting to characters who could already DP FADC.
So I think that for both the meter requirement/better options not available, Vega will be among the characters that could benefit the most of this mechanic. =)
As for both ultras, it is clearly beneficial for Vega as well. He already has damaging punishes, so invincibility was the main reason for U2 to be choosen. Now, we won’t have to choose between shutting down fireballs, and forcing the opponent to respect us. Due to damage reduction, it won’t be a match ender such as previous ultras, but we’ll have more options. =)