I’ll flat out admit upfront that I do not have the experience at this game that many people here do. However I still enjoy playing it and discussing it and my understanding of it grows through discussing and analyzing the game with those of you here. In a sense, you are right that a third grade football coach might not be the most educated to analyze high level play. But if he didn’t analyze and discuss his views of the game, he would not learn.
Yeah, I’ve only been playing the game for about a year and I’m just getting used to the parry command, but if I didn’t discuss my views here, my understanding of the game wouldn’t grow…
And also, playing third strike is far less complex than say competing in a boxing match (or football match). You don’t have to be a high level boxer to analyze a boxing match. Even though you do need an insane amount of reflexes, timing, execution and ingenuity to be a high level boxer, you do not need the same skills to be a backseat driver.
Hey, I’ll take it to another level. Nowadays, Roy Jones at his older age probably can’t step into a ring and box as well as he did when he was much younger and more ignorant at the sport. Even though he is smarter now, he simply does not have the reflexes to compete at a high level. Likewise, the top level players have reflexes, skills, yomi that I don’t have. If I was just as ignorant about the game as I am now, but if I had their reflexes and execution, I am willing to bet that I could give you a hard time in a match-up even if I was ignorant about character-specific stuff, advanced combos and other ultra-high levle stuff.
Third strike is far simpler than boxing; it is not the same thing as rocket science or doing mad Calculus in your head. It’s not hard to analyze that shit after seeing it done; it’s hard to do that shit in real time with perfect execution.
I personally think that Makoto’s damage potential off a throw becomes more important at Japanese levels as parrying becomes more important, and I think the reasons for it are fairly straight forward. I don’t need to be able to parry out of Aegis reflector to see how valuable a move that you can’t parry or block and that does sick damage can be at high-levels. Yeah, sure Chun Li may have a Kara-throw but it’s not going to nearly-kill you off of one hit. Makoto OTOH can do near Hugo-levles of damage off of one throw or in some instances even more than that.
Don’t try to appropriate what I wrote to support your point. You and I are making separate arguments. You think the passage of time has made some ridiculous nonsensical argument about parrying become easier or something. I’m saying Makoto has gotten better over time as people have begun to master her options. If I had to make a cross-game comparison, I’d say it’s loosely like Cable in MvC2.
Cable’s one of the best characters, but he’s dropped off in recent years as people mastered characters like Magneto and Sentinel to a higher degree. When Marvel first came out, Cable vs. Sentinel was a laughably lop-sided match in Cable’s favor, because the robot couldn’t get near him to save his life. Nowadays, Sentinel can stomp all over Cable’s head with virtual impunity. Why? Not because Cable’s bullshit got easier to deal with over time, but because other people’s techniques progressed. In 3S, high/low/kara throw didn’t magically get easier to deal with, but other techniques have come along with other characters that are also good.
I’d point to the example Mike Sirlin made about hills and the competitive landscape. Cable’s hill is very high, it’s one of the best hills in Marvel, but as people explored the terrain more, they found even higher ones involving other characters. Over time, Cable’s very high hill seemed less high, not because his hill changed position or anything, but because other hills were found which were higher than his. It’s still a good hill, but there are also other hills.
Like I said, a loose example, so don’t take it too seriously. Yeah, Makoto’s offense has weaknesses, but it also has a great amount of strengths. I think those strengths deserve recognition. I’m honestly not sure if I know enough about the game to sit here and say Makoto > Chun. The last KSK Ranbat was Chun central, and you can see the strengths in nearly every match. But is Makoto somehow not top tier despite the ridiculously strong offense she can put up? I don’t think so. I don’t know if I could rank the top tier, but I would say that Makoto is definitely in it.
Okame, I would like to say that I think you’ve made the most valuable posts in this discussion and I am greatful for the knowledge you have imparted to me.
And since I can’t shut up, LOL!:
“You and I are making separate arguments. You think the passage of time has made some ridiculous nonsensical argument about parrying become easier or something. I’m saying Makoto has gotten better over time as people have begun to master her options.”
I’m saying that over time her options have become more deadly because she can do sick damage off of stuff that can’t be blocked or parried… Thus, the better you get at parrying and pacing the match to see an opening to parry, the scarier she becomes relative to other characters because that tactic is not reliable against her. (Well, it’s not reliable against anyone but it’s far less reliable against her.)
I’ll probably end up saying it a million more times, prolly evertime someone calls me stupid, LOL. No matter what people say here, the shit’s not rocket science… It might not be kindergarden either but it surely isn’t rocket science…
Hey, I’m not a newbie. I’ve played the game nearly 10,000 times. I am far from an expert or Hell maybe even “mid-level” compared to those here but I gaurantee you that I will beat a true newbie AT LEAST 8 out of ten times.
I play at home (though I also have a joystick). I do not even know of any arcade in my area that has a third strike machine. Fuck it, I do not even know of any decent arcade in my area.
But fuck it, if I was at an arcade, I would still blame the controls!
Hey, at least you’ve gotta give me credit for not fronting about stuff with you. I could easily say that I am an expert at this game and the king at the local arcade but that wouldn’t have made it any more true…
Also, let me paraphrase this expression: tools change but principals remain the same.
Now in Japan, someone might have found a slightly better combo w/ Makoto or the combos might be slightly different in the arcade vs. the home version, but in principal, she is a scary character because of her mix-up game, stun and damage potential. That is not going to change when talking about high level, mid-level, home-version or arcade-version.
I think that my basic point highlights one of the fundamental principals of Makoto and I still think her basic strengths might become more potent at ultra-high levels of play relative to other characters.
According to your theory Hugo should be #1 'cause he can parry everything anyone throws at him. But he has a 3 frames start up command throw that can’t be parried.
According to my theory over time, characters that have command throws in general should rise in the ranks.
Hugo might have a great throw game but his throw game is mostly DEFENSIVE (i.e., you wait for an opponent to make a mistake and then counter.) He does have a good mix-up game as well but he does not have the speed and mobility with his dash and other moves to use his throw game as offensively as Makoto does.
The difference between Makoto (or another character with a command throw that’s rising in the Japanese ranks–Yang) and Hugo is that Makoto’s (or Yangs) command throw is offensive and you can use them to apply pressure on a defensive-minded opponent.
Hugo has a great mix-up too and even though his throw game certainly helps his offensive pressure to some degree, he simply doesn’t have the power to overwhelm a character in the way that Yang and Makoto do.
If Hugo had Makoto or Yang’s speed or ability to paralyze a character, then I gaurantee you his offensive throw game would become a lot more scary.
One more point. Is it a coincidence that the two characters that rose in the ranks are both offensive pressure fighters with command throws?
Not just that, but Akuma’s rising too… And even though he doesn’t have a command throw, he does have a Max Super Art that you can’t parry.
And though Hugo is still considered ultra low tier, at least both he and Q are now considered better than Sean over there. It’s all relative, but in a way he is “rising” too (just now as much as maybe Q and a few others).
I think my thesis–that moves you can’t parry become more important as the Japanese get better at parrying–is pretty self evident. Now that you brought it up, Hugolizard, it is not just Makoto, but it does seem to be a general trend.
When she misses sa2 = loss of the round, that’s the biggest loss if you can make a chun player whiff sa2 when they try to do a quick combo from your recovery. This happened with aruka and a couple other vids with nuki and other chun’s from past recorded tournies.
I agree with someone saying that parrying represents the player’s skill and not the character tier but each character is limited in how they can use parries anyways. But parrying also falls within the skill level of your opponent as well.
It doesn’t become effective to start parrying shit down with Q unless you get 3 taunts in. Q getting beaten up when he has 3 taunts is actually good for him because he builds meter with every large clump of damage the opponent tries on Q. So he can afford to be sloppy and go for parries with his super armor.
With Remy there’s more things you can do other than parrying. With twelve it’s the same as Remy for parrying, unless Twelve has meter which he has to use to get damage off a parry. Remy using parries to either combo into a stored super (VERY RARE) or if a cr HP is there for sure after.
Hugo has a nice quick throw after a parry but that’s only if he’s in range. If he’s in range and the opponent throws something out that close something tells me the hugo could have stuffed whatever it was with one of his high priority pokes or just 360’d it.
lyrical acid, your problem is that you talk WAY too much. You don’t learn anything by continually posting and trying to reinforce your inexperienced opinion. Seriously, just go play the game. Instead of theorizing this and that, by playing you will understand how this game works firsthand. Not to be harsh, but this really doesn’t help anyone. Makoto is not better than Chun Li. Period. No other character can threaten you so much while putting themselves at little/no risk as well as Chun. There’s nothing subjective about what I’m saying.
Do you play at arcades or do you play at home on a D-Pad?