Chun Li General Thread: Blue Jade

I’m always practicing counters, punishes and ways to deal with a situation.

-Like vs Cammy’s jump-in/cannon strike game: Going for the st. LK anti-air with normal timing and then immediately do cr. HP in case they did a delayed cannon strike/EX CS to beat that. Doing B+HP after the st. LK also seems to work, but the AA hitbox on cr. HP is a gives a bit more breathing room. Both can be cancelled into Kikoken if you have charge and she’ll land right on top of it. If you miss the cr. HP, usually you go right under her cannon strike anyway and can act first.

-A similar tactic against people who neutral jump to bait a grab tech. More often than not, you still have time to act afterward, so doing cr. HP after whiffing a grab tech is good for anti-airing them on the way down since her hurtbox is lower (standing normals usually get stuffed).

-Dealing with Birdie’s V-skill. First of all you can block the banana and soda can both high and low. There’s a misconception that they hit low and this isn’t the case. You can’t get rid of them any other way though (can’t hit them) so unless you’re blocking them, you’ll have to avoid both them and him while they are out.

Now the important part (which wasn’t so obvious to me until I went to training): The startup of him using V-skill is so slow that even if he backdashes a few times to create a “safe” distance, you have enough time to dash up and st. HK him. He’s also in a counter hit state the entire time before he throws them down, so it will be a crush counter punish and you can dash up and do cr. MK xx HK Legs afterward. This punish works from about half screen away since her st. HK reaches very far and he’s such a big target. Test it, so you can get a feel for how far you can do this from.
*St. HP reaches a bit farther and is one frame faster, but without meter or v-trigger, you won’t get as much damage.

Working on my 1 hit hit-confirms and grinding out to continue pressure after wards or go into combo and not just flow charting the block string.

Confirming IALL. IALL is chun’s only way to get a tick throw setup without having to pixie walk forward and is wasted if is always followed by a cr.lp.

Exactly what I’ve been working on as well. Just figured out yesterday that IALL is a good tick setup. But it does require the ability to confirm block otherwise the throw will wiff.

working on…

  • IA Stomp xx Legs in the corner. Very inconsistent atm.
  • corner pressure, specifically working out the different timings for cancelling kikoken from c.MK, bHP, sMP, b+MP and such (this is rather annoying, the different charge timings).
  • protecting the sky with j.MP x legs.

On a separate note, watched this video of sakonoko… very nice safejump + stomp shenanigan setup post CC-sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYkT7Xz7O6I

How do you guys feel about chun being the best in the game. I feel like vesper was hyping the situation with chun. Also for chun to be the best in the game no one has won any major tournament with chun or beat infiltration with chun.

Tournament results don’t speak much to me, Infiltration would win those same tournaments playing Chun-Li.

She’s the definitive #1 to me, she has a lot of strengths with minimum weaknesses, a 3f cr.lp, a true reversal, some brilliant pokes in St.hp/cr.mk/f.mp/St.mk, a fast walk speed, the v-skill hop covering certain AA options, jab confirms into good damage, and IALL buffing up her rushdown game considerably.

Yes she has weaknesses, every character does. But on paper I thought she was S+ tier, turns out come full release she’s more A+/S tier but I don’t think any other character holds a candle in the wind To Chun-Li.

Thinking that v-skill is good is very telling. It has 11 frames of start up.

I’m not saying she isn’t good. She is certainly top 5. She doesn’t dominate the game though. This isn’t 3rd strike.

If you want a real discussion you need to list her weaknesses too. Her true reversal requires metre and charge. She has the worst throw range in the game. A bad v-skill and bad v-reversal. Her crush counters are also not great. B.Hp sends them airborne and has a very small hit box and St.Hk is slow and hits high. They’re fine pokes, but not great as crush counters.

IALL is what makes her top 5 but people are going to start reacting to it. It’s not like its invincible.

IALL is not what makes her top 5. It’s the cherry on top. Chun is the best char in the game for sure, although characters like Ryu/Nash are close behind her. Chun just has A LOT going for her. Sure she has weaknesses, but she has so many tools:
Great normals, amazing anti-airs where it’s impossible to jump on Chun (st.lk, b+hk, air throw, j.mp into legs, etc), 3 frame jab, jab confirms into mediums, gets oki after her BnB, gets setup out of super, overhead that combo’s in vtrigger, a vtrigger that guarantees at least 300+ damage on confirm, a slide that goes under cr.mp’s(!) and fireballs which she can cancel into vtrigger for big damage and oki, vtrigger that only requires 2 bars and lasts forever (you can vreversal 3x and still get a vtrigger that round), an ex fireball that is borderline broken (they can’t jump cause she has answers for it, and if they block it you get the same situation as a knockdown. Just look at Alioune replays, he abuses that shit, and for good reason), EX legs that starts up in 5 frames and can be used in footsies (and is safe on block!). And then you have IALL (which I think is a gimmick, when people start antiairing that consistently, her pressure will not be so overwhelming anymore). EX reversal when the going gets tough, instant overhead stomps into air legs (which makes them safe-ish).

But yes, her vskill is bad. And her vreversal is bad. But it does what it needs to do: reduce stun and creates space.

Sure Chun doesn’t have everything, but no character does, cause if a character has everything that makes them broken. Chun has soooo much though. She’s definitely top 1. I didn’t see it at first, cause if you play the character yourself, all you see is the flaws and not what makes her so good. It’s when you start messing around with alts that you start to realize what a complete character Chun is.

Nice analysis of Chun. I like your insight on the character.

My question then, do you think she beats the top half of the cast?

I think she has favourable matchups against much of the bottom half.

Against the top half though I think she is evenish.

This still makes for a good character, it is just a different picture than if the top destroys most of the cast. That is a situation where you need to be that character or one a few who can fight them.

Follow up, how does she compare overall to Karin?

Chun-Li is very top tier, but I hope she doesn’t change. I’m having a lot of fun play as her this way.

I just think people are dumb if they think Chun is clear cut THE best. I also think it’s dumb to list a bunch of tools as the reason why a character is the best… Here’s why:

EVERY CHARACTER HAS LOTS OF TOOLS.

Ok sorry for yelling, but yeah seriously, this needs to be understood.
One can easily list a “This character has this, this character has that” list and make things look good on paper.

The true judgement on what makes a character the best in most games is what their BEST TOOL IS., or better said, what their most broken attributes are. Then couple this with what their weaknesses are in relation to the cast and you start to get a picture of how good a character is or isn’t.

For me, because of her all around toolset, Chun is top 5 theory. But when I look at her “overpowered” options, all I really see is IALL.

Everything else about Chun seems pretty fair when we compare what she has to what others have. Besides IALL Chuns best attribute is her all aroundness, she has answers for everything, but she basically has the best of nothing.

People think “answers for everything” automatically means that those answers are amongst the best answers in the game… But they largely aren’t. So it goes with “all around” characters, they have an answer for everything but their answers are all mediocre in general. It’s not always like this with all arounders, but that’s the gist with them. They do get their attributes distributed in different places though. This all around Chun as an example suffers in throw range and “motion gameplay” she lacks stuff when not sitting on charge. If other characters can force her to approach she loses charge and without charge she loses range, having to rely on her pokes and fast walkspeed.

This isn’t the same as oh say karin since when karin moves forward she doesn’t lose access to any moves and still has far ranged specials that are fast and hard to react to.

Chun is a mixed bag at neutral cause of these attributes. If characters try to approach her at midrange and brawl it out, Chun is monstrous against a lot of characters. But if Chun is forced to approach she loses a lot of power, and similarly if Chun is forced to play the long range game she also loses something since her only long range is a fireball that doesn’t go fullscreen.

With a tweak here or there she would easily be the best character in the game. Like if her fireballs went fullscreen then she would be a powerhouse. Characters couldn’t just sit at fullscreen with no worries and force Chun to approach them.

Getting a life lead with chun is probably tantamount. Once she gets a lifelead and can force the opponent to come to her, she will likely feel oppressive trying to rushdown a character with her speed, her AA’s, her ground pokes and her HP fireballs recovery.

But let’s be clear now:

Defense is chuns best aspect. Her overhead is slow, her jump is slow and low range, her IALL lacks range, her dash lacks range, her v skill is slow. She is a character that is designed with defense in mind, but that CAN attack decently when given the opportunity. Chun struggles against characters that have better defense than her and can outrange her, and characters that can get around her defense.

Luckily her all around toolset allows her to play in the grey areas better than almost any other character so it’s hard to tell when Chun is on offense or defense. And that’s probably Chun at her high level best.

If you are rushing people down with her all day there is more than likely a skill gap, a big one. If you are keeping people away all day it’s likely the same thing.

Chun is best in grey areas and adequate in others but she doesn’t dominate any one aspect of the game from where I’m standing that other characters can’t simply ignore.

IMO.

I kinda agree with Dime. Sorta. When I played Chun during the Beta, I wasn’t feeling her at all. I think Chun’s archetype is sorta outdated in a way in the new Capcom fighting revival era. She’s a poke machine who is supposed to whittle down your health. But I think starting with SFIV, it became clear that offensive oriented characters were always going to be near the top tiers throughout every iteration, and that was not ever Chun. And SFV looked like it was(and is) continuing that trend of offense oriented characters being near the top. For all of Chun’s strengths, and many have listed them, I don’t think rushdown and offense was ever listed as strength for Chun, UNTIL IALL was discovered. I know some of you disagreed, but to me, IALL IS what makes Chun a top tier character and a force to finally be reckoned with in SFV. She can finally apply some scary pressure throughout the entire round( she can with V-Trigger, but you gotta wait for that)

You take away IALL, and you still have a great character, but I just don’t think she’s anywhere near as scary or powerful without it. You essentially have USFIV Chun who can hang, but isn’t going to be outright dominating the other contenders in the game. I’ve said it before that I’m glad Chun is finally OP in this game. You wanna play a more fair or “neutered” Chun, you had nearly 7-8 years of that with SFIV. I’m done with that shit. I’ll take this iteration any day.

I still think white chip is really big to focus on with characters that have good walk speed. They are going to command the footsie game and even if people are blocking the footsies, you are forcing that white chip to add up and that eventually will make your pokes or throw hurt pretty bad.

Not surprisingly when IALL was discovered, Capcom added extra recovery (can no longer link mediums after it) and extended the hurt box on air legs. It definitely does help her a good bit, but as time goes it won’t be as defining of a tactic for her. It’ll mainly just be there as an extra option to threaten people who just want to react to when you are in throw range with techs. At the highest level down the road you aren’t just going to be able to bust out IALL like a traditional dive kick. You will get anti aired by anything.

This is a game where barring Mika, you can tech out of most all mix up type pressure after you take it which definitely feeds back into Alpha 2/3S/CVS2 era SF tactics working well again. Just being in the right spot with the buttons.

What’s your handle? I’m too far away (Asia) but I can watch your replays via CFN if nothing else and see if I can help

I don’t think Chun has any bad matchup at all. Maybe Sim or Ryu, but even that’s debatable. And it’s not even that bad of a MU. And to say that she ‘beats’ a lot of chars is hard to say. But she’s definitely not unfavored. Most are 5-5 or in Chun’s favor. To be fair, I don’t think any 1 character ‘destroys’ every other toptier char. And that’s not what makes a character #1. It’s the fact that she has (almost) no bad matchups, coupled with all her tools I mentioned earlier.

So the top half of the cast, I’m assuming you mean:
Birdie: Even or slightly favored
Cammy: Even
Dhalsim: Unfavored imo (but still not entirely sure yet)
Karin: Even
Ken: Heavily favored
Laura: Heavily favored (probably Chun’s best MU)
M. Bison: Even
Nash: Slightly favored
Necalli: Slightly favored
R. Mika: Favored
Ryu: Slightly unfavored imo

And the remaining chars (Fang, Rashid, Vega, Zangief), she’s favored against all.

Alex idk, still need to learn the MU. But from what little experience I have, it looks favorable.

Oh and ofc chun mirror is always 9-1 matchup in favor of the opponent.

And to answer your Karin question, I don’t think Karin is even top 5. Maybe not even top 10. There’s a reason why every top Japanese player switched from Karin to Chun lol. Most overrated char imo

I don’t wanna change the topic but I have a quick question, I play a more keep away style basically passive an I was wondering is chun the right character for me sometimes

MJR_Poltergeist

Give me Rashid tips, I feel lost vs the frametrap heavy ones.

Really seeing progress at my local with Chun. Win rate improving.