me too, i using chun and stuggle a lot against very turtle or defensive opponent,which makes it hard to open them up :o
hi @xaaz, so basically chun frame trap is c.lp.s.mp—>f/b.mp? and also c.lp.b.hp which is gud vs birdie? and what else can be chun frame trap? because i can’t still really read the frame data, maybe u guys can teach us newbies how to read it,
Watched that video with Gamerbee. His Chun Li is trash for lack of a better term.
It’s obvious he’s just learning SFV as he’s just doing a lot of unsafe stuff. HK lightning legs at near point blank range, c.HP at near point blank range. This is stuff that you can literally just mash buttons and punish on block. He didn’t use any s.MP at close range, no f+MP, s.MK or s.HP when at further ranges for poking/whiff punishing, he just had no idea how to play the character at all.
I think people who played a lot of games like Alpha 2/3 and CVS2 may be comfortable with not having to mix people up to open them up. 3rd Strike and SFIV are games where you tend to focus on mixing people up a lot to do damage, but in those previous games mentioned you kinda just keep walking your buttons at people and just keep pushing the guard crush/white chip if all they want to do is block. Gamerbee wasn’t doing anything that safely forces white chip so he would make it look like it’s bad if you can’t open people up.
Most characters in this game don’t have neutral reversals/DPs and the ones that do usually have to spend meter and they all risk a crush counter into big damage and V Gauge build if they whiff or get blocked. Which opens up more white chip and more people letting you throw them as they don’t want to risk those counter hits. Chun Li is heavily built around those white chip and counter hit situations with the throw just being an extra threat when they block too long.
LOL ok cool. I was about to check the FB link, but glad you made things easier.
It’s on shitty 144p tho.
Also, one of our OG Marvel 2 players saw that and was like “what the hell is that Magneto shit” when he saw IALegs.
That’s why I like Chun. I’m always footsies/buttenz first with SF, but at heart I originally mained 3S Ibuki who has a lot of marvel/anime stuff too. It’s like 3S Ibuki again where I get to walk around fast with buttons then bust out the marvel when I want to also.
Video was cool. Did a lot of the basics. Really liked his fireball use. That’s the one thing I need to use more of. Look forward to more if he plans to main her.
SFV Ibuki better not have molasses walk speed.
Yeah those two strings are solid frame traps for Chun. They’ll typically trap normals that are 3+ frames. Really Chun only uses a few main normals for her traps. Usually jab, low jab, strong, b+fierce, and b+strong. There are other normals you can use for traps that aren’t conventional, but I’ll get to those in a little bit.
Check out this site:
That’s a collection of sfv frame data from the betas that gilley put up. Tab on over to Chunli3 and observe the Startup and Block Advantage columns of her standing and crouching normals. When you’re building frame traps you want to look at moves that are plus on block (or neutral in some cases) and other moves that have at startup that complements the frame advantage of previous moves. Like Chun’s jab is +2 on block and her strong is a 5f startup, which leaves a 3-frame gap, so naturally those complement each other and form a solid frame trap. Conversely, if you looked at her jab (again, +2 on block) and her roundhouse, which starts up in 12 frames, you would have a 10-frame gap, which is not that great of a trap.
Now having said that, there ARE instances where even like a 10-frame window can cause a trap, but that has to do more with distance and hitboxes than it does with straight frame data. Consider the string low jab, strong, b+strong, fierce. We know the first three normals create two frame traps (between jab and strong, and between strong and b+strong), but there’s a giant gap between the last two normals (11 frames in this instance since b+strong is 0 on block and fierce is 11f startup). Just looking at the frame data you would think that that’s terrible, BUT because of the nature of that entire string it will often work and that’s because by the time you get to the fierce you’ve been pushed far enough back that most fast normals an opponent sticks out won’t reach you or will have retracted enough by the time your fierce connects that you won’t get hit.
Hopefully that gives you a more solid idea about the nature of frame traps. Check through the frame data, experiment, and see what works for you.
Nice. Kind of looked like he was still feeling Chun out. Like he had her basic tech down but was still sorting through applying it. I wonder what those naked lightning legs from halfscreen were all about. Maybe some kind of read? I don’t know. I thought it was pretty funny seeing him do the blocked ex legs, ex bird bit. I love that.
Well, Chun is basically his counterpick for Nash when he doesn’t want to do Nash mirrors.
I don’t think that was Amara’s point irt the Gamerbee vid. I agree he wasn’t playing optimized, but come on. It’s Gamerbee, the man played Adon and Elena and yet didn’t use Chun Li’s head stomp or her V-Skill? Those are unsafe. Even if he was playing Chun Li poorly and unsafely, you’d think his own tendency to prefer overheads would come out right? It’s not like Gamerbee doesn’t know her tools or move list. He is a professional gamer doing a show case. The point is that Chun Li lacks proper overheads, and she lacks ways to punish people doing nothing due to her lowered throw range.
I like Gamerbee’s use of fireballs.
Could be useful for opening people up? It’s very defense oriented and could be a tactic against us.
This game is not SFIV so overheads and throws aren’t as necessary to amount an offense. Overheads usually don’t lead to a combo unless counter hit any ways so the actual reward you get for landing an overhead is usually slim. Bison has no overhead, a telegraphed dash and no DP. He is considered high tier by some, but a lot of people are going to not get a whole lot done with him early on because of that. Everyone has things they excel at that will flesh out over time.
Throws and overheads are just a part of the flow of options as you make people block things. There doesn’t need to be the same urgency to pop people open like a can of Pringles. Not the same game. There are characters that you can play if you want to do that, but they have issues in the neutral game that people will complain and feel discouraged about also.
Gamerbee does not know how to play SFV Chun Li at this time from watching that video. It’s pretty obvious. Xian at least has a Chun Li, but it’ll still be a while before everyone has optimized neutral and tech for their Chun. No one has a really strong neutral game with Chun yet IMO and Crackfiend and Kuraresu are the only 2 players I’ve seen that really have her combo tech down so far.
Bison has Devil’s Reversal and head stomp, which both force standing block… But that is irrelevant. Bison’s style doesn’t need strict overheads, he isn’t a mid range poker. Chun li is, and has far less options to deal with turtling than he does.
You are right overheads aren’t mainly for combos, they are to punish crouch blocking. Chun Li cannot punish bad play due to them nerfing her head stomp, and making Sen’Enshu, her main overhead, highly telegraphed and slow to start up.
Throws have been in the game since SF2 to let players punish this exact style of play. At the most basic level, throws are specifically to punish turtles and players that do nothing… The fact that Chun Li has neither tool makes it extremely difficult for her. Her shortened throw range makes it nearly impossible to grab a crouching opponent. It needs to be fixed.
The Gamerbee match was not meant to ‘show how a good Chun Li plays’, it was to demonstrate a design problem. Constantly bringing up that it wasn’t that good is just avoiding the point being made. What do you do against a Ken with a life lead turtling in the corner? You don’t have many options due to the problems mentioned above. She has pokes but in that position they are predictable.
5MP’s range is horrible. It’s even smaller than her jab - you have to be practically crashing into your opponent for it to connect, at which point they have way more options than you. 5MK isn’t viable as a poke as of the last beta if you look at the hitboxes because the hurtbox goes past the hitbox by a considerable amount, meaning that it will never trade in your favor.
Either way, it doesn’t matter if he’s playing the character “right” as soon as Ken is in the corner because Chun just doesn’t have options anymore, even with V trigger. If that’s all it takes to shut your character down, you’ve done a bad design.
That Xian video made me happy. I was worried they were going to nerf her air legs for the final game.
As for someone who is turtling in the corner, why not just throw them? If they are hitting buttons then whiff punish or frame trap them. It’s as simple as that. All the while you can build white chip damage as well.
You guys are free to think what you want and who is to say which side of this argument is right, but I’d like to make one more point that ya’ll seem hung up on:
I get what you’re trying to say but you need to understand that from our point of view that if you’re going to use a subject (Gamerbees Chun) to illustrate a design flaw then the subject itself should probably understand and be demonstrating the actual design. It’s quite clear that at that time point in time Gamerbee did not yet understand the design of Chun. Just being a pro does not mean he instantly knows how to use a character. The illustration lacks credibility is what I’m saying.
It’s like if Gamerbee was standing out in the rain getting soaked with a closed umbrella at his side and an observer decided to use that as an example of why that particular brand of umbrella sucks for keeping you dry in the rain. Maybe what this guy says is true, maybe it’s not, who knows, but Gamberbee isn’t using the damn umbrella, so how are we supposed to really know from that?
Slow Chun has always had problems with blockers… In every game. There are a few things that Chun needs to be a very good character and I don’t yet know if she has them yet in this game.
However for the chicken little peeps that think the sky is falling against defensive players… You haven’t looked at all her moves well enough yet.
There is a very obvious move that she can use to destroy downbackers, in her movelist.
It’s her kikoken. It does chip damage. There’s your anti turtle move.
I personally think that the best day one strategy to use with Chun is to simply learn to throw fireballs well, and goad the opponent into jumping into her B+HK anti air.
Free damage for Chun. And once she’s taught the opponent not to jump, is when she becomes truly scary.
Remember that her fireball is both an offensive and defensive move at the same time. She can follow it in for easy mode offense of the frame trap/throw variety.
But I think she suffers if she tries to force offense, or plays defensively to long. I think she goads people into coming to her so she can go on offense.
Well at least a little bit.
To me this is just Vanilla SFIV Cammy all over again. “Cammy doesn’t have an overhead so she isn’t that great and can’t get people off block”. It’s been 7 years you’d think people would figure that there are other ways to open people up by now. You guys aren’t just going to simply run to Ryu or Ken because they have 19 frame overheads and slightly longer throw range because then you have to deal with their stubbier normals, no plus 3 normal, more negative on block normals and not having a plus on block CC.
Are you telling me that if I have a plus 3 on block normal with 4 frame start up and use my neutral throw when someone is in the corner that they might get opened up? You mean I could use my superior back walk speed compared to most of the cast to make them whiff throw techs and open them up before I actually get in that throw range? You mean I don’t need to be Laura or Necalli to open people up? You mean I could also throw out a plus 2 on block CC that does 25 percent of the damage my s.MP does on hit if they BLOCK IT? Hmmm.
Well personally I do think they have a point.
But it’s more of a “can’t open up defensive characters in a traditional way” point to me.
She still has v skill crossups, walk in throw, instant air legs pressure, kikoken followups, dash jab stuff and her overhead moves forward…
She just doesn’t have a real great way to go for a confirm, get it blocked and then get a throw/frame trap mixup.
Which is actually a point of concern but Its something most everyone in the cast has to deal with.
The one thing I hate about sf5 and Chun and basically everything is how people are using sf5 as a piece of evidence as to why sf4 was crap… When their opinions are some of the stupidest stuff ever.
Things like jabs are to strong, completely forgetting that jabs are only strong at near point blank range… A range you have to be very good to get to on offense consistently, or very bad to allow your opponent into consistently.
And a whole other host of stupidity as well.
Sf5 is a decent game, but it in no way proves sf4 or sf4’s mechanics to be bad, anymore than 3s proves ST to be bad.