Or he could just do a counter which is much easier.
I read that post already; I just don’t agree with it.
“Simply space him” is easy in theory, not in practice, especially when all of Metaknight’s special moves allow him fantastic approaches on top of his “running” speed and range.
And you say “can” KO MK around 80? With what? The slow Forward Smash? That’s pretty much only time I’ve ever gotten a KO on him that low.
Meanwhile, Metaknight doesn’t have to outright KO you with power as long he can get you off the stage (which is easy after Tornado spam racks up damage and then Down Smash knocks you off the stage) since you’re a sitting duck on Cypher and Shuttle Loop has retarded horizontal knockback almost regardless of what damage you’ve taken.
I would say it’s even; I would say it’s more lopsided towards MK, but that would just be because I have trouble fighting Metaknight in general.
How the hell can you competely destroy Falco on the ground if you can’t even get close to him?
SHDL isn’t obsolete in this match-up simply because it still serves to control space for Falco. Sure, Snake can crawl underneath it, but then what can he do against Falco after that? All he all has while crawling is Dtilt or Shielding/Dodging.
Meanwhile, Falco still has Reflector to keep you of range, which can’t crawl under and which makes you trip about 50% of the time, and he can Falco Fantasm you rather effectively, especially since it has tremendous speed and he can feint it now.
Most of the time that I’ve fought (Giza’s) Falco, I have to go over his SHDL with a grenade and then go underneath. Just crawling underneath it gets me knocked on my ass half of the time and I wouldn’t call 50/50 advantageous.
Outside of that, sure, Snake’s normals are overall “better” (read: more powerful and on average have more range than Falco), but Falco doesn’t get completely destroyed on the ground considering how easy it is chain throw Snake.
After that, Falco clearly has superiority in the air, especially since his Dair spikes (and be used right after [chain] throws at the ledge provided you don’t DI correctly) and Cypher is oh-so vulnerable to spikes.
So, it’s even at best, though I think that Falco has a 4-6 advantage to be honest since he can camp and Snake can’t since C4’s kind of useless on your side, mines just get in your own way, and Grenades can be blown up by lasers before you even get the chance to throw them.
AFAIK, R.O.B. actually has the same “slow” moving speed as Snake, so I don’t see why you bring that up as a factor. And his laser doesn’t really need to charge nearly as long as I thought it did and even the weak version it will blow up grenades (in your hand) and mines on the ground all in one go. His top also doesn’t “need” to be charged, it makes so that it can KO or stay out longer, especially since it’s stupidly difficult to pick up for anyone that isn’t R.O.B. himself.
I still don’t really see what “camping” set-ups Snake has versus lasers that can blow both grenades and mines, leaving him with just C4 which is difficult to use against R.O.B. since you either can’t near him when he doesn’t want you to (I thought that Ftilt would outrange his Dtilt, but it doesn’t seem to) or being in the air a lot of the time (Fairing you in the face multiple times).
He doubtless has the advantage in the air, and the only real disadvantage I’ve noticed about his ground normals are that they are fairly linear, but otherwise they recover quite quickly (stupidly quickly with regards to his down As).
On top of that, his absurd recovery means you either have to kill him outright or keep him from landing, which is quite difficult. Unfortuantely, all he has do against you to edge is his harrass you with aerials until he can try to spike you, which has no penalities at all for missing for him unlike a lot of other spikers due to it keeping him suspended in the air. (Thanks, Sakurai.)
This match is also even at best for Snake, 4-6 is probably closer.
Again, I don’t see what the “can” KO below a 100 is doing if people are letting you hit them with Forward Smash or letting you hit them with C4 (which is difficult against people that primarily stay in the air, which is pretty much everyone on this list except for Falco, who still jumps around a lot).
I’d say it’s even at best, especially since Pit, oh stupid stupid Pit, can still camp him and you can’t exactly try to camp back since his arrows explode grenades and are basically a controllable version of Falco’s laser.
(Thanks again, Sakurai.)
It’s probably even because Pit is kinda of light (seeming lighter than MK for some reason), but I really don’t see how you can say Snake has the advantage right after saying that Pit can camp Snake like everyone else.
Like I said earlier, Snake is good, but he has problems like most other character in the game. I still don’t see how he can “camp” effectively (at least against these four), but that’s may partly be because I see camping as so goddamned boring.
P.S. And what part of Snake’s AAA goes through Tornado? I would like to know so that I can try it out next time.
We dont hate the word. We hate the disguising misuse of it.
Real talk.
Lots of good counter statements in that post, but even with all that said you’ve shown that Snake is even with them at the very least.
Then what word would y’all rather hear?
Yeah, like I said earlier, Snake is great, and I have no problem with him being better than most others on a tier list (that I could really barely care less about). However, he’s not the god most people (especially orochizoolander, who plays freaking Metaknight) are claiming him to be.
(I personally think that R.O.B. is at the very top, but I don’t play him [or any of the other three] at the moment, so it’s quite possible my opinion is biased by ignorance [like almost everyone else’s].)
I personally think “environment” would a be pseudo-synonym to what a lot of people seem to think “metagame” means that wouldn’t be horribly misused like “metagame” tends to be and yet isn’t misused by its definition.
That said, I’m sure there’s a better word than “environment”.
R.O.B. doesn’t seem like he’s at the very top, I’ll need more convincing than that. And environment is to awkward to say.
That’s why I said personally. I don’t really care to convince you or anyone else about that at the moment, mostly because I don’t really care about tier lists and I’m still too ignorant about this game to think that I have a valid opinion.
And “environment” isn’t more awkward to say than “metagame”.
Why couldn’t one just say “game” in the first place? Why “metagame”?
Couldn’t have said it better (about myself).
Well this is a tier list discussion thread, so I would expect debates aimed towards convincing others to be the primary topic, but if you don’t feel like participating it isn’t like I can make you. And the words metagame, and game mean two completely different things.
“Game” would be actually applicable, though, considering that “metagame” has been shown to be incorrect usage.
And I’m well aware what this thread is, which is why I’ve been trying not post in it much. I mean, I don’t have any (personal) videos to back up what I’m saying and I doubt that I’ll ultimately convince anyone of anything they don’t want to believe.
I mean, even when you move the list around, you say how you disagree, so what the hell’s the point outside of some “discussion”?
That said, I don’t want to waste any more of either of our time, so this is going to be my last post (for a while).
Good luck with your tier list.
It’s use is occasionally valid. I hate hearing it because people have bastardised it into a general term meaning “how you play the characters”, rather than the use of game external tactics.
Magic players use environment or format, but since we (At present) have only one format, I would stick to environment. However, if we end up with items vs. no items, with significantly different tier lists, then I think format would be the appropriate word.
…Metagame
Snake can release D and go into any of his standing moves out of crawl.
A lot of good points about Snake matchups though.
Ganondorf:
Pros/Cons
- high percentage/ great knockback on almost all moves
+great air game
+can use short hopped delagged versions of his uair,dair, and bair
+great edge guarding game
+can tech chase
+one of the best meteor spikes in the game
+can eat projectiles with certain moves - has suicide attack
-2nd slowest character in the game
-hard to get around projectiles
-many hard match-ups
-some of his more powerful moves are sluggish/laggy
I would like to re-write is description and fill in his match-ups as best as I can later.
Goddamn STFU about “Metagame” Jesus X_X Some characters are better than others: END OF STORY.
EDIT: Joe, call me crazy but I think Bowser is a tad faster than Gannondorf.
Speed rankings I got from somewhere else. I think it was GameSpot’s forums
Running Speed Ranking
From fastest to slowest
- Sonic
- Captain Falcon
- Fox
- Sheik / Zero Suit Samus
- Metaknight
- Charizard
- Pikachu
- Marth / Diddy Kong
- Yoshi
- Toon Link
- Donkey Kong
- Pit
- Mr. Game & Watch
- Bowser
- Mario / Lucas / Ivysaur / ROB
- Samus / Lucario
- Falco
- Ness / Ice Climbers / Olimar / Wolf
- Kirby / Squirtle / Ike
- Luigi / Peach / Wario / Snake
- Link
- Zelda / Dedede
- Ganondorf
- Jigglypuff
This is specifically running speed based off of how many frames it took for each character to run a set distance.
So yeah, Ganon is second slowest, but it’s Jiggs that’s even slower. Of course, running with Jiggs is pointless since her shorthop works a lot better for movement.
Ivysuar needs to be lumped into “Low” tier at least.
She was already there, but she got demoted. Poor dear.