Character Ranking Discussion

gogogo theorycraft:

Ness is better than Lucas imo. Fair is good for destroying shields, and spacing. His dair is very strong, hits through platforms and it cancels on landing. Uair is also very strong and cancels on landing. His nair is very strong and stays out a while, it feels like a melee sex kick. His bair is also quite strong. All his aerials other than dair come out very fast, and all of them when performed near the ground have no lag. Ness’s fair beats Ike’s counter :slight_smile:

His ground game isn’t that great, bat hits hard, yoyos are okay, his tilts hit well but they have low range. Dtilt is nice though, it procs a trip roughly 1/3 of the time. His ground game might even be good with that new tech, boost smashing.

His neutral b and over b specials are worse than Lucas’s in that they aren’t spammable. Neutral b hits like a truck when you do land it, which isn’t that hard to do if they’re off the stage. If it’s highly charged and sweetspotted it kills midweights around 80%. His down b is fast enough to heal with and it pushes objects away when it ends.

His up b, is much better than Lucas’s though. It moves faster, is spammable, it’s safer to use as an attack and they both hit multiple times (use the tail). Because it moves so much faster, it’s good for koing off the top. When Ness pk thunders himself it actually hurts, unlike Lucas’s.

Lucas is less gimpable on his recovery, but that’s not because his pk thunder goes through him, it’s because he has a tether and his pk thunder turns faster so he’s vulnerable for less time. However, you can still gimp his recovery by attack Lucas’s pk thunder, it’s just that you need to do more than merely run into it.

Basically I view it as Ness having a strong offensive game, and Lucas being mostly defensive, as Lucas lacks an approach, and his ranged moves are more spammable. The only things Lucas has going for him offensively are his usmash, and his bair. If Lucas had an approach maybe things would be different, but as far as I can tell his best approach is rar which is rather slow.

I also think that there are too many tiers for a game this young, I would limit it to 3 tiers, high, middle and low. There’s just too much we don’t know to accurately have 5 tiers. (Not that 3 tiers would be that accurate either…)

Finally, I’m in agreement with UltraDavid that Ganon isn’t that bad. He’s the only character than can really tech-chase which has to count for something. It feels like he has favorable matchups against game and watch, wario, bowser, samus, link, captain falcon and sonic. He does have trouble against people with a good zoning game, but he’s not bad enough to be bottom tier. Ganon does fairly well against characters without a good zoning game, who also aren’t extremely disjointed like Marth.

I concur. Ness should either be tied with Lucas or slightly below or above him.

Even if he’s more gimpable than Lucas, if someone like Olimar is in tier above him but has even worse recovery and projectiles–please tell me how Ness’s PK Fire is “not good” outside of camping, please do–and has less range than him (I’m pretty sure all of Ness’s smashes go farther than Olimar’s, if only slightly, and can’t be killed like Olimar’s can), then why is he an entire tier lower?

Oh, right. Horrible bias, given how high the Ice Climbers are, outside of the few obviously top tier people like Pit (grr…).

God, this thread is so stupid right now.

Are there even any video links given how often Smashboards goes down?

Am I the only one who thinks the tiers are really out of whack the way they are now?

I have my reservations for that tier list, normally, I don’t get involved with discussions of tier listing…but since i’m finally on board with a game on launch, I feel like I can throw some knowledge in.

First of all, piecing out squirtle, charizard and ivysaur is quite silly. PT isn’t about one of those pokemon, it’s about using them all effectively. The pokemon get tired after two minutes of game play and their damage and knockback gets reduced pretty xcore. A pretty good strat I’ve found so far is to deal massive damage with ivysaur (bullet seed traps are so easy to setup), and until you are close to getting knocked out, switch to charizard, if not, keep going for the uair or the usmash with ivysaur, instant kills above 100% (which isn’t hard to get!)

Second, falcon. Bottom tier? Really? he’s worse than Lucario? Maybe I’m missing something, no, let’s say I am missing something, but let me tell you what falcons working with. He’s got all his tools from Melee, the only thing that was nerfed was his knee timing, it still has great KO potential…it’s just that recovery in this game is very easy mode. shffl’ing knees is still a viable tactic and his smashes do have great knockback. His speed is very comparable to Sonic’s and his chain grabs are boss. I don’t really play lucario, maybe you need to enlighten me (any strats? tips?)

Third. Ness. Fan boys, put it away. Lucas is miles away from ness in many ways…even recovery! When Ness gets knocked out or loses his second jump and initiates PK thunder, you can easy go walk off, take the hit and watch as ness dies. Lucas doesn’t have that problem, and even has a small tether for a mind game recovery. I know its argued that lucas IS better than Ness, but we shouldn’t even put them on the same tier.

Keep the lists going though, although at this stage…writing lists is much like picking a horse with knowing few things about them, it’s still fun to indulge in :smiley:

I agree 120%, G&W got such a massive boost up from his crappy Melee version that he can take on top tier characters easily. Especially since his U+B has improve greatly and has awesome priority, not to mention he has great smashes.

You are infact not, sir. This shit definatly need more time to cook. I can not beleive that falco is the best character in the game.

That and there’s no way in hell I would put ganon below bowser. His f-tilt alone gives him a much better match against alot of characters imo.

Falcon bottom? Really? Ok, yeah, he can’t l-cancel n-airs anymore, but seriously, isn’t this a different game than melee? I’d say his up-air, back-air, knees,down-tilt…

fuck, I would defiantly put him over luigi. Easily. and I play them both.

I’m also finding G&W alot more serious than alot of characters the CT placed higher than him.

Why is Squirtle so high? Sure he’s fast but his KO moves are SLOOOOW to come out.

^ Because Squirtle’s the cutest one, silly.

Seriously.

I mean, Falco’s good and all, and I’m sure his supposed chaingrabs can be lethal on walk-off stages, but I can’t really see how he’s better than Pit, especially when Pit’s projectile is a controllable version of Falco’s and Pit has much better recovery (provided the stage isn’t Jungle Japes).

But, yeah, whatever.

question:

Why the fuck are we rating PT as three separate characters? THE GAME FORCES YOU TO SWITCH FOR GODS SAKE. In order to play as safe as possible you don’t have a choice but to learn all three of them.

And while we’re on the topic of mode change characters, has anybody but me noticed that switching between Shiek and Zelda is ALOT safer now? And that Zelda - stale move negation is SCARY? therefore switching to shiek could prove to be beneficial this time?

EDIT: I mean, seriously, it’s going to be years before the tier list is going to start making sense. This game imo has no bad characters that I can see; just bad match ups. This game will not be as retardly easy to tier as melee was.

Zedla laughs at stale move negation thanks to Dins fire.

All projectile users do actually.

Also Snake is the best in the game.

…Errr…actually, just the opposite. Even though the game is a slower one than Melee movement-wise, the transformation from Zelda to Shiek seems to take twice as long. I’ve gotten hurt pretty badly all the times I did when either the opponent wasn’t coming back from a KO (or the edge) or items were off.

Shiek to Zelda seems to take less time.

I think it would be beneficial to use it though, considering they both have different match-ups–they are the only ones besides PT that have that luxury–and I agree with you about this being a more match-up based game than Melee ever was.

^The transformation has alot of invincibility frames. IIRC: They both have alot of invincibility (When niether of them are visible, they can not be harmed. seriously) But turning into shiek has noticable lag at the end.

DF isn’t with out it’s weaknesses. First off, it’s laggy as hell. Secondly I only find it hard to get around when you’re in the air. Thirdly, if a character forces her to miss while running in she’s not going to have time to do another one. Simply staying in her face works just fine for me.

…and Projectiles get stale also.

Ummmm.

*sigh

Forget it.

Terrible poster.

But, seriously, I don’t see snake moving from high up any time soon. I also can only see zelda moving up.

For the record I don’t even agree with CT’s list 100%.

But I do like general placements for the most part.

Also CT said Marth can’t camp.

That’s not true.

Marth can camp.

Hell, Marth can camp certain projectile users. You just have to know how.

Btw, calling meta’s priority “decent” is kind of funny.

You serious snake is one of the very best in the game if not the best, he is just such a beast, me playing against stormlocke tonight only solidifies my belief. Not only does snakes ftilt and aaa beat out EVERYTHING, but he can setup bombs traps all day long without much interference from anyone even projectile users can’t stop bombs traps effectively. The new “boost smashing” technique makes snake A LOT better, and don’t forget snake is a heavyweight and it shows he can easily live over 150% and if he’s over 200% hurting himself with his own bombs doesn’t even kill him:mad:

Fuck snake, i’m not saying he definitively is the best in the game like emblem says but it’s a strong possibility and i’m convinced he’s at least in the top3 best.

LOL yeah mk has “decent” priority it’s ok:wink:

That’s like saying Jupiter is only “decently” sized.

I’m not going to say anybody is the best just yet, but I can say that the nakita is possibly the best projectile in the game. Reflecting it is just…pointless.

But I seriously cannot find too big of a use for his grenades.

LOL yeah but even with all his priority he got bad matchups against all the toptier:sad:

The top is all we can be accurate about at this early stage of the game, and here’s my edcuated guess for the top in order:

snake
tl
zelda
pit
marth
wolf
rob
mk

Go play dr.stormlocke’s snake and then try telling me you have no use of grenades it’s 50% of his game.

Hopefully I’m missing something with them. How exactly does he use them?

EDIT: I’m saying this because they can be thrown back at him. And letting them cook takes a long time.