Character Balance Poll

[Kuroppi]

Isn’t this an admission that the Honda-haters are right? You play non-optimally because playing optimally is boring.

No. It’s only against two characters. See below.

Projectiles do block damage and throwing them forces the action.

The problem with matches like Honda vs. Hawk is not that Honda is too good and wins for free, the problem is that the best strategy for Hawk is to sit there doing low jabs and the best strategy for Honda is to sit there doing nothing at all. Neither of those strategies forces the action, neither player has to move, it’s a contest of wills to see who can fight boredom off longer.

Well, the same “boring” strategy applies to Hawk vs Bison and Hawk vs Blanka as well. Maybe not to the same degree but fairly close. This is just how particular matchups result due to each character’s moves and strengths/weaknesses.

Or is there a problem with T-Hawk’s design as well?

So we have Kurropi admitting that when he plays with Honda he fucks around because playing optimally is boring and we have Milo saying “I agree that it’s not very interesting” (to fight Honda) and these are the people defending him?

It’s not exactly f’ing around. My “f’ing around tactics” against Jodim were still pretty safe espeically if I distance it right but one mistake against a Zangief who can execute like Jodim and you could be talking about game over and there’s always a risk in any move you do, whether it’s a Honda headbutt, a Ryu Shoryuken or whatever. But we all know about the risks in this game. One mistimed hadoken against an opponent and it could cost you 90% of your life.

Only vs Zangief/Hawk does Honda have to turtle for his life because he can’t let them in close or it’s most likely game over. But the same applies for any character vs a grappler.

Using Jodim as an example again, believe me, players turtled for their life to keep his Zangief away from them. That’s just the fact of life when you’re playing against a grappler.

[margalis]

Hawk vs. Blanka plays completely differently. Blanka doesn’t have an all purpose anti-air move, the ball attack is much easier to stuff or trade with a variety of moves and Hawks DP against the ball does sick damage.

Anytime you knock Blanka over you have a lot of options, all of which will at least trade. And if you get a bit tricky like purposely jumping in a little late with down + strong you can stuff whatever it is he does and work from there. (Other than a reversal back hop I suppose)

Blanka is not an impenetrable wall.

Let me ask this, in how many Honda matches is the best strategy for both players to do nothing? Zangief, Cammy, Fei, Hawk, Claw and Blanka at the least? These are all matches where there is nothing that forces Honda to act and while sitting in D/B it’s extremely difficult for the other players to approach. So their best strategy is to stay the hell away and his best strategy is to sit there.

There is no other character in the game like that.

[Kuroppi]

According to Kusumondo, Honda loses to Boxer (3.5-6.5), Claw (4-6). Honda loses to non-projectile characters? WHAT?!

He says Honda beats Cammy (8-2), Fei Long (7-3) and Zangief (8.5-1.5). Yeah, that’s pretty bad but what I want to know is that if all Honda has to do is hold down back and do nothing, headbutt if he’s in danger or just push a button to get Oicho if someone is going to throw him, how does Honda not win all those matches 10-0?

[System_1]

According to Kusumondo, Honda loses to Boxer (3.5-6.5), Claw (4-6). Honda loses to non-projectile characters? WHAT?!

Are those numbers from REMIX?? I don’t personally see how serious Claw nerfs and Honda buffs results in a Claw advantage in anyone’s book.

Well, the same “boring” strategy applies to Hawk vs Bison and Hawk vs Blanka as well. Maybe not to the same degree but fairly close.

I feel fine approaching Blanka as Hawk, trading a dive with him, etc. I’m GLAD if Bison tries scissors or crushers against me, only have to watch for headstomps.

[Ganelon]

Nope, those are from ST matchups.

The reason everybody has a chance is because the Honda player may not be able to react to everything someone throws out. That’s the only reason Honda is fairly even against claw: because he can’t react fast enough to what claw might do. Fei can connect with one of his his specials and try to turtle with ~50% success until time runs out. Cammy can connect with one of her specials and try to turtle with little success. You have to do something to keep Zangief out so while you’re slapping, he might on rare occasion be able to grab something or time an air attack to hit you.

That’s an awfully limited guessing game on their end though, which results in prompt Honda headbutts and other counters most of the time. On the other end, it’s far easier for Honda to do early damage to those characters with the slaps or headbutt and just sit on that.

[System_1]

I dream of a day that people stop quoting ST matchup data on notably modified Remix characters

[shortpitched713]

Personally, i really like the idea of making headbutt much more unsafe on block as a way to nerf it as opposed to adding vulnerability to jab headbutt. That way it still remains a uniquely powerful defensive weapon, but now it has the drawback that it can be baited and punished like other moves, opening up some mindgames there and giving some non-fireball characters a mode of attack.

[Rioting_Soul]

If this is the designated character buff/nerf/change wishlist thread…

Akuma- Give his SGS more start up so he has no guaranteed ticks and decrease the invincibility so he isn’t invulnerable to all the hitting frames of Vega’s flip kick. Remove cancelability of far roundhouse. Fix the hitboxes of the attacks that need them(like Red Fireball). Give regular hadouken a bit more recovery. Give SGS more damage.

Honda- Take away the projectile destroy of jab headbutt. Return HHS priority to normal. Take away jab headbutt invincibility. Give him O.Honda normals. Remove the punishable gap in his super. Keep stored Ochio.

Fei- Return CW properties to normal. Make the Rekka input like Iori’s in CvS2. Make j.forward stuff low anti-airs.

Cammy- Increase the speed of jab Spinning Backfist but make it only do one hit that doesn’t knock down.

Hawk- Crouching jab stuffs Psycho Crusher consistently. Fierce dp hits Guile’s lows. Throwing frames of 360 increased. Regular Hawk Dive returned while keeping new Hawk Dive.

Dictator- Decrease the priority on all jumping strongs.

Zangief- Return Banishing Flat to its ST input so you can do it right out of a forward walk.

[jchensor]

Honda- Take away the projectile destroy of jab headbutt. Return HHS priority to normal. Take away jab headbutt invincibility. Give him O.Honda normals. Remove the punishable gap in his super. Keep stored Ochio.

Honda would be terrible this way. You left him with no good Reversals. He would be the worst character in the game.

• James

[System_1]

Yeah, he needs jab headbutt invinceability, but while I disagree, I can see other’s points on how that headbutt causes some characters really big trouble.

Best thing to do about it if something is to be done, is to make it have more start-up and/or recovery time to make safe hits easier and/or make it more punishable, forcing him to decide when to use it. Mind you, I don’t think it needs to go that far, but that’s what I would do.

Oh and letting him keep everything good about ST honda, and giving him the good O. Honda normals in exchange for losing the fireball destroying torpedo would make him LESS balanced than he was in ST, not more.

Remix changes made him slightly worse against non-fireballers and made him less screwed vs. projectile zoners.

Those changes would do the opposite - it would mean he is just as bad off vs. projectiles and even nastier vs. the characters that he already beats.

My “shin Honda” (unabalanced)

Regain O crouching fierce, (maybe let him keep the new 2-hit one on a different commant, like from offensive crouch.)
Get the old standing fierce back - no more far standing fierce because that’s crouching fierce now.
Regain old standing kicks in the form of toward + K
Let him have the best versions of the frame data for all normals

This by itself would make him nasty but I’m not done

Down charge up + punch is now the HF butt-bomb - he keeps the ST butt-bombs as down-charge kicks. If that’s too stupid then at least he gets med hf butt-bomb as down-charge + 2 kick buttons

He gets remix floating fierce and jumping short

Gets remix fireball destroyer headbutt

Keeps old range on jab headbutt (bye bye Sagat)

Oicho is the ST oicho (full stun, no wiff, storeable), but can be charged both ways - one bounces back, one bounces foreward.

Keeps non-nerfed ST Fierce and med slaps - jab slaps are moveable per HF - keeps easier input.

Super is like old (storeable and fast first hit), but juggles per remix, has faster 2nd hit per remix and has a smaller window between the first two hits so it cannot be interrupted.

This can be summed up as:
best normals
best slaps
non-nerfed, improved oicho
gets remix imporvements
return of HF’s two-hit butt-bomb without losing anti-fireball ST butt-bombs

It’s the best of all SF2 honda’s and a true beast - not as unbalanced as akuma, maybe even not as high-tier as ST Sim, but much less balanced.

Still -a Honda player can dream - hmmmm might have to make this in mugen just to see it once…

[MiloDC]

Hawk vs. Blanka plays completely differently. Blanka doesn’t have an all purpose anti-air move, the ball attack is much easier to stuff or trade with a variety of moves and Hawks DP against the ball does sick damage.

Anytime you knock Blanka over you have a lot of options, all of which will at least trade. And if you get a bit tricky like purposely jumping in a little late with down + strong you can stuff whatever it is he does and work from there. (Other than a reversal back hop I suppose)

Blanka is not an impenetrable wall.

All true.

Let me ask this, in how many Honda matches is the best strategy for both players to do nothing? Zangief, Cammy, Fei, Hawk, Claw and Blanka at the least?

I’d switch out [media=youtube]bhSWzWnMNO4]Dictator for Claw. Claw’s jumping strong and fierce are reliable for turtling, but his ambiguous wall [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwm92uP1Tew#t=2m8s[/media] work against Honda as well as they do anyone else.

These are all matches where there is nothing that forces Honda to act and while sitting in D/B it’s extremely difficult for the other players to approach. So their best strategy is to stay the hell away and his best strategy is to sit there.

There is no other character in the game like that.

That’s overstating things, I think.

As others have pointed out, the mutual turtling that goes on in those matches has as much to do with the designs of Honda’s opponents as Honda himself. After all, not all characters need to do as Zangief, Cammy, Fei, Hawk, Dictator, and Blanka must do in a Honda match.

Also, truth be told, Cammy can force Honda (and anyone else) to act by threatening him with hooligan rolls (one of the big reasons I like playing her, as I despise turtling). I’m not sure that I’d leave Blanka in that little group, either; his [media=youtube]eoEEEfcB_iU#t=1m45s[/media] is very solid against the fat man. That’s certainly not “doing nothing.”

[margalis]

I’d switch out [media=youtube]bhSWzWnMNO4]Dictator for Claw. Claw’s jumping strong and fierce are reliable for turtling, but his ambiguous wall [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwm92uP1Tew#t=2m8s[/media] work against Honda as well as they do anyone else.

I’m no Claw expert but aren’t Claw’s wall dives significantly nerfed in Remix?

Also, truth be told, Cammy can force Honda (and anyone else) to act by threatening him with hooligan rolls (one of the big reasons I like playing her, as I despise turtling).

This is like saying that Hawk can force Honda to act by walking up and then either doing a 360 or a DP. Yeah, it’s true, but it’s also a losing proposition. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen Honda get hit by a hooligan roll. I find it hard to believe that the success rate is very high, even with the imrpoved speed.

I’m not sure that I’d leave Blanka in that little group, either; his [media=youtube]eoEEEfcB_iU#t=1m45s[/media] is very solid against the fat man. That’s certainly not “doing nothing.”

Note that in the first round Blanka just sits on the other side of the screen doing standing shorts until Honda screws up and is hit by electricity?

I’ve played a fair bit of this matchup as Blanka and yes, jumping short works pretty well. Unfortunately in order to set it up Honda has to screw up pretty badly.

If it were one or two characters I think it would be fair to say that the fault is those characters. But when it’s 5 or 6 characters I think you have to look at the common thread - Honda. You look at the Blanka match, a Hawk match, a Fei match and a Zangief match and they all look the same: spamming moves that can stuff a headbutt while waiting for something to happen.

A lot of the characters that Honda beats need buffs anyway but I’m not sure what buffs would help them in that match. Buffs that help Hawk against Guile or help Cammy against fireball chars aren’t automatically going to help them against Honda.

For example a DP that hits low limbs better would help Hawk a fair amount against Guile but would be irrelevant against Honda. Better normals would also be basically irrelevant. What are you going to do? Give them all fireballs or ultra-fast Boxer rush moves?

[Rioting_Soul]

Honda would be terrible this way. You left him with no good Reversals. He would be the worst character in the game.

• James

How is Rising Sumo Smash bad? I’m not disputing that it’s good, I just want to know. Because how I see it now(before your insight), he’d have better reversals than ST Bison. Also, isn’t there something just inherently wrong with a special with reversal properties coming from a back charge input? Would a good compromise be to change Headbutt command to charge d/b, f+P and keep invincibility?

[BeautifulViolence]

Look, look, guys: there is a solution to the whole Honda “problem.”

The fix is this: If the player holds down-back for longer than 5 seconds, his balls light on fire and runs around until he can find a bucket of water to dip them in (which is only on the Honda stage, unfortunately). This should drain half his life, but his attacks become twice as powerful.

Honda is a monster, but he’s not ST Shin Akuma.
I fear players more than characters.

[jchensor]

How is Rising Sumo Smash bad? I’m not disputing that it’s good, I just want to know. Because how I see it now(before your insight), he’d have better reversals than ST Bison. Also, isn’t there something just inherently wrong with a special with reversal properties coming from a back charge input? Would a good compromise be to change Headbutt command to charge d/b, f+P and keep invincibility?

The Sumo Splash is bad because there is too much startup time before it hits (21 and 19 for the Short and Forward ones respectively) and the Jab Headbutt is the ONLY move he has that has hitting frames overlapping invincible frames. The first 21 and 19 frames for the Short and Forward Buttslams have invincibility, but they also cannot hit. The first frame they can hit, they become vulnerable… so they’ll never beat out other moves… just trade.

Again, this would be okay if you tweaked the Buttslams as I said I would have done had I tweaked Honda. I would make them maybe have similar invincibility frames, but make them hit much earlier so there would be some invincibility frames that could beat out other moves and hit faster so it can actually be used as anti-air.

• James

[MiloDC]

I’m no Claw expert but aren’t Claw’s wall dives significantly nerfed in Remix?

It simply doesn’t knock down, and it has slightly worse recovery. Its powers of ambiguity remain unaffected.

Also, truth be told, Cammy can force Honda (and anyone else) to act by threatening him with hooligan rolls (one of the big reasons I like playing her, as I despise turtling).

This is like saying that Hawk can force Honda to act by walking up and then either doing a 360 or a DP. Yeah, it’s true, but it’s also a losing proposition.

No, it isn’t like saying that.

The time and difficulty involved in T.Hawk’s walking up and typhooning someone is much greater than Cammy hooligan grabbing someone. The hooligan is way faster, and it doesn’t require any manual dexterity to perform the actual grab once she’s in range for it, while even experienced T.Hawk players have trouble doing walking typhoons consistently.

As for the DP, that’s no pressure at all, because it can be blocked. Honda can simply stay in defensive crouch, then punish it as T.Hawk recovers. If he stays in def. crouch during a hooligan, he gets grabbed.

I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen Honda get hit by a hooligan roll. I find it hard to believe that the success rate is very high, even with the imrpoved speed.

It’s not high, but it happens. I’ve done it many times on hardcore turtle Hondas. (Of course, it works most frequently when Cammy mixes things up, which any Cammy worth his salt will do anyway.)

I’m not sure that I’d leave Blanka in that little group, either; his [media=youtube]eoEEEfcB_iU#t=1m45s[/media] is very solid against the fat man. That’s certainly not “doing nothing.”

Note that in the first round Blanka just sits on the other side of the screen doing standing shorts until Honda screws up and is hit by electricity?

That lasts for all of about five seconds. If you watch the [media=youtube]eoEEEfcB_iU#t=3m2s[/media], Blanka’s strategy (i.e. standing short as dashing attack defense) is much the same vs. Dictator.

Yes, during a match two experienced players will often turtle up for some portion of each round. So what? It’s an overstatement, to say that this is somehow idiomatic predominantly of Honda matches. It happens in MOST if not ALL fights, regardless of the characters involved. It’s mostly a side effect of two players respecting each others abilities enough that they don’t want to leave themselves open to attack. Just like in real-life fighting, actually (look at a boxing match, for example).

I’ve played a fair bit of this matchup as Blanka and yes, jumping short works pretty well. Unfortunately in order to set it up Honda has to screw up pretty badly.

Why? Why can’t being a really good Blanka be a factor?

Was Roku’s Honda (the Honda in the video) a bad Honda? Did he “screw up”?

Is your Blanka better than AFO’s Blanka, or worse than AFO’s Blanka?

If it were one or two characters I think it would be fair to say that the fault is those characters. But when it’s 5 or 6 characters I think you have to look at the common thread - Honda. You look at the Blanka match, a Hawk match, a Fei match and a Zangief match and they all look the same: spamming moves that can stuff a headbutt while waiting for something to happen.

Why is Honda automatically the only (or most significant) common factor?

Why isn’t it more correct to say that each of those characters has a design that limits his options against Honda?

I can think of other characters whose tactics are the same no matter WHO they’re fighting – Claw’s wall dives and Guile’s turtling being perhaps the greatest examples. You want to complain about the vast one-dimensionality of fighting certain characters, there ya go. Honda comes in a distant third or fourth.

A lot of the characters that Honda beats need buffs anyway but I’m not sure what buffs would help them in that match. Buffs that help Hawk against Guile or help Cammy against fireball chars aren’t automatically going to help them against Honda.

For example a DP that hits low limbs better would help Hawk a fair amount against Guile but would be irrelevant against Honda. Better normals would also be basically irrelevant. What are you going to do? Give them all fireballs or ultra-fast Boxer rush moves?

I haven’t ever given it much thought, because I don’t consider Honda matches overly dull or broken.

[Rioting_Soul]

Again, this would be okay if you tweaked the Buttslams as I said I would have done had I tweaked Honda. I would make them maybe have similar invincibility frames, but make them hit much earlier so there would be some invincibility frames that could beat out other moves and hit faster so it can actually be used as anti-air.

• James

That sounds good.

EDIT: Considering what I did to Honda(with your above quote as an addition) and whatever other characters may be a counter character, do you have any problems with what I suggested for Cammy? Do you think it is not enough to help her in the majority of her bad matches? From what I’ve seen and played, Spinning Backfist had to be used as an anticipatory counter to projectiles and even then it was possibile for her to be punished. Against Honda I don’t see it being much help but with the nerfs I gave him I think she’d be fine. Against Sim, her j.strong was nerfed but a faster Spinning Backfist should allow her to pass through Yoga Fire while stuffing some of his follow up pokes depending on range. But of course Sim could just do Flame instead.

[tombrokaw]

This doesn’t really apply to the intermediate and advanced players here, but of course most people are not intermediate or advanced.

I was using honda earlier today just playing some quick ranked matches and won about 12 consecutive matches just doing various headbutts and then fierce slap after headbutt. Oh and super once I had it. The only other thing I did was bear hug if they came within range. I’ll be honest I don’t even know how to do an ochio.

Basically I know nothing about how to play him but I still dominated beginners and maybe a couple intermediate players. I played a zangief (and I know he’s a decent player because I’ve run into him before), and just dominated him. I was actually laughing during the match.

I’m not suggesting the game be balanced based on the experiences of beginners but I saw first hand what many people are complaining about.

[margalis]

The hooligan is way faster, and it doesn’t require any manual dexterity to perform the actual grab once she’s in range for it, while even experienced T.Hawk players have trouble doing walking typhoons consistently.

I honestly don’t think you’re playing the same game as everyone else.

Seriously what is this wonderful world you live in where T. Hawk can cancel moves into grabs for inescapable 360s but experienced Hawk players can’t perform his moves properly?

[jchensor]

Why? Why can’t being a really good Blanka be a factor?

Was Roku’s Honda (the Honda in the video) a bad Honda? Did he “screw up”?

Is your Blanka better than AFO’s Blanka, or worse than AFO’s Blanka?

To be honest, the first Round he lost, yeah, he did screw up. And the second round he lost was just Blanka shenanigans. Not Roku’s fault at all, there… just fell for a trick that would work on any character.

I am not saying Roku’s Honda was bad, but I do think he played it not as safely as he could have. Once he got a lead, if he really wanted to, he could have turtled up and peaced him out pretty badly if he did.

Why is Honda automatically the only (or most significant) common factor?

Why isn’t it more correct to say that each of those characters has a design that limits his options against Honda?

But that’s like saying Akuma isn’t too powerful right now and that every character just doesn’t have a way to stop the Air Fireball and Raging Demons.

However, your argument gets a lot more backing given the fact taht Cammy, Fei Long, and Hawk do suck against a LOT of characters, not just Honda. Buffing them up is definitely something that should happen.

I WOULD like to add a point though that, one of the reasons why Honda is so much tougher to beat, is taht his anti-air is a Sonic Boom code. Charge codes are all MUCH easier to do on reaction than DP codes and the like. To be honest, if a Honda ever gets caught by a Hooligan Roll while they are charged, you must have done SOMETHING good to lull them to sleep. Because, in general, Guile and Honda and Balrog are the characters that I can NEVER Hooligan when they are charged, because it takes so little to react with a Charge code.

I can think of other characters whose tactics are the same no matter WHO they’re fighting – Claw’s wall dives and Guile’s turtling being perhaps the greatest examples. You want to complain about the vast one-dimensionality of fighting certain characters, there ya go. Honda comes in a distant third or fourth.

Well, Vega’s Wall Dive no longer knocks down, so his one-dimensional fighting isn’t as applicable anymore. See, THERE they nerfed Vega. Should they have buffed everyone else? Isn’t Vega the factor? There ARE times when the one dimensional fighting CAN be attributed to the guy who beats up everyone else.

And I do honestly believe that Guile has more inherent weaknesses than Honda in the turtling department. If you get Guile to Block High by jumping over a Boom (which Guile has to do from time to time to keep you out, so he IS opening himself up), you can apply pressure by Jumping again and such to keep him from charging his Razor Kick. There is no such option against Honda, for when you Jump at him again, he’s charged for his Headbutt now because HIS anti-air is synonymous with Blocking, something no other charge character has (even Vega has to start charging at D/B).

• James