I would definitely like for his Ultra input to be changed to the ST input. Would be a lot more forgiving to land. I’d rather see a crumple EX boom than knockdown as well, but I know that’s wishful thinking. Maybe a sort of vacuum effect that brings the opponent closer, with a somewhat lengthy hitstun so as to not bring Guile within someones mercy of retaliating(wishful thinking again).
I don’t know about b+mp for overhead though…st mp is viable as AA at times. What I’d like to see is catching someone with an ex boom after a st mp AA.
I don’t think it needs knockdown but it sure as hell would help against Sagat and Sim. it would fix the Sagat match-up instantly without braking it, as far as I’m concerned. Considering that majority of EX projectiles knock-down in Sf4, it doesn’t seem unreasonable.
It isn’t a must though.
Generally, I agree with the “Must-Have” list Woo has assembled.
Also, Guile is in dire need to having his hitbox looked at.
Nothing there seems to change Guile into WW Guile
@Lord Arklon
Crumple seems a bit much honestly. It would offset the balance against many characters.
Ultra one does need vacuum properties ala Rufus, Ken, etc. but leave the input as it is.
It’s not an easy move to set-up…if one hit lands, all hits should land.
I have no problems with either making his c.mp links 2 frames or upping his damage. As is there is no real deterrent for people to just keep eating minor damage (and stun) to get in. C.mp is so crucial as the only combo-able move for down and back charge (outside of situational s.hp to FK) that I wouldn’t frown on the balance of keeping his links as all 1 framers for more damage or make them more lenient for similar damage to what they are now.
I also do not want b.mp for his overhead, but I don’t want f.mp for his overhead either, maybe df.mp so you could do c.mk xx df.mp xx lk.fk. I don’t know. Just make him a finished character.
What is wrong with Guile being a punisment character. Apparently if you think this is limiting then you haven’t seem enough high level Guile play… Guile is notorious for baiting and punishment tactics. The problem with Guile is that he can bait out a lot of shit but doesn’t get enough from his punishment. Guile is really good at setting the pace in matches. He is one of the few characters who make people afraid to hit buttons. Guile has great spacing tools with sonic booms. Basically its hard to fight Guile without taking risk. What do you think made Guile so good in WW and CE? It wasn’t his incedible offense game for sure. It was his incredible defensive and spacing tools. Something that as far deeper than gimmick high kick juggles and ultra setups. Bottomline if Guile does not get defensive tools he will suck. This is how he’s always been. Punishment happens when you bait out mistakes. You have to force an error. This is how Guile has always worked. This is why Guile no matter how powerful he is is largely considered an advaced character. He relies a lot on really good spacing, footsies, and strict timing. It makes me wonder how people been playing Guile when they don’t think punishment is important to him. When its the biggest part of his gameplay next to zoning.
Right, and this is the entire point I was making, coming from you:
When you play a character that is designed to punish who must punish many times, in a competitive setting, you’re requiring the player to make frequent mistakes. As player skill increases and mistakes becoming less frequent, his play style becomes rapidly less effective. Point being, Guile as a character would be entirely fine, if his punishment did 350 damage. But they don’t. You would need to make an extremely skilled player constantly make mistakes over the course of typically either 2:3 games or 3:5 games.
Sanford Kelly VS Dieminion, Dieminion actually took a game here. But after that, it stopped, and Sanford Kelly pretty much dominated him. Reason being, he stopped making the mistakes that lost him the previous game/round. That’s what good players do.
I feel like Capcom did acknowledge that Guile can very easily punish people for mistakes and felt that because it’s so easy, his damage output can’t be too high else he’ll just bait and punish his way to victory. That’s fine against like, intermediate players, but the top players aren’t going to fall for it. His damage is all that really holds him back.
I never said that punishment wasn’t important to him, I mocked that “punishment machine” just meant that he had to dish it out frequently, and brought up that a character who relies on their opponent making frequent mistakes to win isn’t well designed. Guile needs to hit -very- hard when people make a mistake, else the punishment oriented playstyle is just an open invitation to try ourageously dangerous high “risk” (against just about everyone else) high reward tactics to walk all over him.
I was wondering how others felt about comeback potential too. Just hurts to play a good lock-out for 2/3 of a round to fuck up and eat major damage. The comeback potential is pretty damn low, I sort of think damage boost would help this, but part of me is really curious about risk/reward for bigger comeback opportunities outside of Ultra.
And, to answer your question. What made Guile so good in WW and CE? Everything everyone did in that game took 40+% of your opponents life. You could fuck up once, maybe twice against Guile. Not 8-12 times a round.
Yes a good player will make less mistakes. This doesn't mean mistakes do not happen. How do you think top players beat other top players. By your logic every match would end in some sort of draw because no one is making mistakes. It seems there is an underlying theme in your post that Guile should be some
crazy rushdown machine. It still wouldn’t do him any good. Because people who don’t make mistakes block perfectly eveytime and counter you everyime. Making rushdown useless against anyone with top level defense. CE and WW Guile was top tier. Totally based on his punishing ability. Punishment does work when a character gives off damange like someone who is meant to punish. Guile gives off bullshit damage and thats why his punishment sucks. Bottomline if Guile loses his punishment ability he sucks. And punishing chracters are not poorly designed. Gief is a punishment chracter, Sagat is one, Balrog is one too. Are these teribble chracter designs? Like what are you doing in your matches? Most people are trying to force error from their opponent by tricking them into something. And as far as Dieminion is concerned. Well Sanford is just a better player completely. And he was using a chracter who many consider Guile’s worse matchup. A bad matchup that has counter Guile through many iteration of SF. Dieminion probably could have thrown anyone at Sanford and still lost. Sanford made the adjustments and won because he adapted better and played smarter.
What do you think Guile should be doing in matches since baiting and punising obviously aren’t useful. Should he get a trijump, a chain combo, maybe an infinite. And maybe he should have a full screen dash. Maybe he become so fucking fast that you can’t block him on reaction meaning half of your damage will be due to bullshit. Since obviously having patience and good fudamentals isn’t good enough to make a character a good design.
Seriously. You sound like you don’t have a clue just how deep punishment is. Or just how many possibilities exist with spacing and baiting strats. When you read up on footsies and spacing combined with zoning then and only then can you call punishment a weak gameplan. Guile has to be one of the better designed chracters in FG history. And make no mistake his gameplan is largely about footsies, zoning, baiting and PUNISHMENT.
Wrong. OMG so fucking wrong. Everyone did insame damage in those games. That is nothing unique to Guile at all. And in the original SF due to the damage there was even less margin for error. And there were chracters who had better “take the fight to him” abilities than Guile. Guile still remained top tier. Seriously it looks like someone need to link you to Schaefer and Watson playing Guile. So you can see the insame footsies and zoning abilities of really high level Guile play. Hell if that doesn’t suit you then look at some Kurahashi or Muteki. Guile has a simple gameplan that takes years to perfect. Years and experience. He’s a very flexible chracter who by design has a lot of tools.
If SF Guile had simple things like better damage, a tad bit more range on his pokes like cr.m, and a better flashkick he’d be a monster. And those are only 3 things. Guile is still fucking good even in his shitty SF4 iteration. He still has a lot of tools for a low tier chracter. Thats saying a lot.
You realize that you and Kich are saying the exactly same thing using different words!?
Both of you are saying that Guile’s fail in SF4 is that the punishes he baits from opponents don’t hurt the opponent enough…a bad thing for a zone and punish based character.
Both of you are saying that in WW and CE, ALL characters did insane damage.
re-read each others bloody post people. You share the same opinion, one which I agree with. Guile doesn’t need rushdown tactics. That’s DeeJay’s job. Guile needs to be good at what he’s designed to be; Zone>bait>punish (and thats what we have been doing, sadly with much less damage output then in the past)
Right, and that’s exactly what I’m saying. Mistakes happen infrequently, but when they do, characters who aren’t even designed to be punishment characters, do significantly higher damage, upwards of even 600+ depending on the situation. Guile can’t even come close to scratching that surface outside of s.fp > super > ultra, a not so easy to do on the fly combo.
And how can I be wrong, when I’m right? Guile did a shit load of damage in WW / CE. I never said that was unique to guile, just that it was what happened. Guile was good because the general idea behind his playstyle suited how much damage characters took at the time. That doesn’t translate well when Guile starts punishing for 7-23% of a full health average stamina character, as opposed to the 25-60% other characters punish for.
I’m not saying he should be a rushdown machine, I’m saying that when he punishes someone, it should hurt like hell. Make no mistake, he’s certainly not a bad character, but there’s a very real reason that he doesn’t typically go -that- far in high level play. Low damage output and a poorly designed ultra (SSF4 should fix this with SH though) hurt him bad, it’s not his gameplan, it’s not his footsies, it’s things specific to SF4.
i was playing ryu earlier and i was at 50% health and he was at about 2%. his jump in beat my anti air clean even though i read it. then he hits fierce punch into fierce punch shoryuken. i decide to try and chip him to death with ex flash kick, i get unlucky and he presses forward fierce punch, down fierce punch into fierce shoryuken and i am completely dead. two of the absolutely most simple combos took 50% of my health.
guile doesn’t even need something THAT extreme, but i’m guessing it would take 6-8 cr.mp into flash kicks to kill someone. (that’s the usual punish you are going to use.) remember, guile is supposed to be this wall of defence, yet the character who just took 50% of my life in two combos ALSO has equal/better zoning and defensive tools, plus easier links and combos.
I’m not really sure if Onion slice has played SFIV Ryu. Most that play a character exclusively don’t know the down side of other characters, in comparison to that there character. Ryu’s not overpowered…but he sure as fuck ain’t balanced.
Guile and Vega have problems. Sorry…Ryu thing had to be said.
Nah b you are on crack if you think Rog is balanced and I’ll show you with this one simple thing.
Rog’s punches are the fastest in the game aka it’s near impossible to throw him or try to tick throw him at a competitive level. On the flip side of this just being Rog allows you to have the fastest punches, tick throw all day everyday, and his throw damage is completely ridiculous.