Except that ban isn’t discrete, it doesn’t draw a clear line between what is and is not banworthy behavior.
What makes planking banworthy anyway? Gliding under the stage is one thing, but staying on the ledge and letting your opponent approach, what’s the issue?
Doesn’t matter, tournament runner gets to decide. Whether or not it’s ban worthy is really a matter of opinion.
Because it gives them a unfair tactical position. Really, it’s too easy to go to the ledge and hang there and wait to attack. It’s one thing if the opponent could easily take it, but you have temp. invincibility.
Oh, and as an aside, one flaw of the competitive Brawl community is the character bias. It tends to happen that the characters who are high stay high because their game developers at a faster rate then the lower guys. i see a tendency to look only at the top of the tier list and have only those characters advance. I see it in Melee too as the bottom grew and grew. Maybe someone can fill me in on how other fighting game communities develop their character games.
[quote=“Smashchu, post:83, topic:81905”]
Doesn’t matter, tournament runner gets to decide. Whether or not it’s ban worthy is really a matter of opinion.
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There’s a very nice criteria that Sirlin created for just that occassion. Discrete, enforcable, and warranted.
“Unfair”, I’m sorry, but we’re competitive communities, we’re SUPPOSED to abuse game mechanics.
“Unfair” is not a reason to remove something, it has to be legitimately broken, in other words, be able to totally dominate the metagame.
As of now, I see no proof that planking gives mk 80-20 MUs with 90% of the cast or anything similarly broken.
If you’re banning for less, why? That’s the kind of thinking that results in totally random bans, instead of allowing the metagame to grow by gradually finding what counters what and how.
Honestly, check out playing to win, it has a great section on what is justified to ban.
Discrete-yes, as most players only use the ledge to get back, or to attack others when they are off the stage (such as in Melee). Planking is when you keep doing it to gain the advantage
Enforcable-Yes.
Warrantable-Matter of opinion.
Since when. There is no great rule book on how to do these.
I could probably give 1001 examples, but I don’t have the time or patience for that kind of research.
Can’t “unfair” and broken be used interchainable. Isn’t broken something that gives someone a great advantage, meaning it’s unfair for those who don’t use it.
Items are banned. Stages are banned. Why is this somehow exempt?
It’s kind of the accepted practice. The point of anything competitive is to win after all. It’s like using a certain interpretation of the law in your favor.
I know you won’t bother looking anyway outside of VGChartz for sales information in order to create a remote conclusion.
Sort of, but it’s not black and white in these contexts. If it’s broken, it can’t be countered. Stuff like chaingrabs are not broken because they can be avoided or countered.
Those are banned in order to make match outcomes based more on skill than anything like strategically using randomly placed items or using stage hazards to win.
I’ll deal with discrete.
What ACTUAL ACTION IS BANNED? Where do you draw the line between planking and not planking? “Doing it to gain the advantage” doesn’t specify a specific action so the distinction is fundamentally arbitrary.
Which essentially means, when you go to enforceability that it’s all judge’s decision, so players have no idea what is or is not banned.
“Planking is banned” fails on the basis of discrete and enforceable (and there’s no proof it’s warranted), try again.
…
You’re not a competitive gamer, you lack the “play to win” attitude.
The fundamental idea behind competitive gaming is that you do anything to increases your chances to win as long as it does not violate the rules.
Why, because quite frankly, there will be people who will do the “cheap stuff”. and if it doesn’t violate the rules, it just breeds ill feelings. At the same time, that’s what advances the metagame, so why should be be ostracizing these people? Since competitive gaming is built around the idea of picking the best player, we hold them up as examples of what we should be doing.
That’s how people here play and think about competition, if that’s not what you’re interested in, then let me ask you seriously, why are you here? Maybe smashboards, maybe, but SRK, this probably feels like a cesspool of all you hate about gaming.
Not really, unfair is a subjective statement unless it’s referencing to the rules of the competition. If used subjectively (since there’s no universal ban, I would assume that this is how you’re using it), then it essentially means that a tactic violates your personal sense of ethics.
If used objectively, then it means it violates the rules of the competition, which is a reasonable use.
Broken on the other hand, means that it objectively over-centralizes the metagame. In other words, it creates a situation where independant of everything else, only a very select few tactics/ characters are viable.
Items aren’t banned, if an item appears I can pick it up any time. Characters that generate items can still generate them.
What you’re talking about is a blatant mis-use of language, the only way that items are “banned” is if giant fire-flower high-gravity stamina matches are banned, and no items matches are banned in all-brawl and ISP.
They’re not banned, a competitive standard was chosen that excludes them, one standard is chosen, it’s required for a competitive community to exist. Saying that another arbitrary standard is banned is a charge that could be leveled against any standard and is meaningless.
As for stages, it’s a matter of proven degrees. Walk-off stages, DDD 0-deaths the majority of the cast there off a single grab. Hyrule temple has circle camping, so only sonic is viable. I could go on, but you get my point, stages are easy to ban, discrete, and the banned ones generally have very obvious reasons.
actually “planking” is banned in a sense.
the ledgegrab limit rule still applies, it’s just absurdly easy to bypass this by getting just under the limit, which is not all that difficult for a character with 5 jumps, a recovery which can’t be interrupted, and unbeatable aerial priority.
Right now, the community is looking to ban “scrooging,” or gliding under the stage. This is another tactic that Metaknight can employ to stall or “play defensively” as some put it.
I think that this is all bullshit and MK should be banned already instead of just placing more and more rules aimed right at him.
arrow of god sounds like a scrub.
lol
the scrub mentality
maybe so
but it’s either you ban MK slowly by gradually limiting what he’s best at (stalling, timing out) or quickly by just banning him outright
I vote that we should save some time.
First off, I was for items at the start of the brawl community, but after plenty of tournaments using items were tested, we all pretty much agreed on abandoning items once again. Items were tested in melee for tourney play, and then dropped. Items were tested in Smash 64 for tourney play and dropped. The same thing that was acceptable previously for reasons to ban items applied exactly the same way in the 3rd game. I mean Akuma being banned in HD-Remix seemed a little premature to many people, but it was obviously based in logic, and the most important members of the Street Fighter competitive community agreed nearly unanimously to ban him. Isn’t that what matters, that the respective fighting game community, not the randoms, but the people who play in tournaments, win in tournaments, are sponsored, run the tournaments, start and maintain the competitive websites, are big names get a tournament that has rules that aren’t completely contradictory to the things that they have helped establish.
We heard goofy terminology like “stage control” to try and suggest that items were not all that random in deciding who wins. All you have to do is really watch the finals match of Evo 2k8 to realize how gamebreaking they can be.
We all did not act childish over it. There have been plenty of tournaments for brawl that have had a much higher turnout than Evo2k8, too many to count on my fingers, so it’s unimportant how many people went, in fact it will prove our point. The fact is, not many big names went to Evo2k8, no motivation. I mean Evo is THE fighting game tournament. The fact that the biggest baddest leaders of this community run it, and they are outspoken against smash’s legitimacy as a fighting game and legitimacy as being competitive, shows the obvious bias. It was obvious to all of us that they really just wanted to alienate the community. They ran a wifi online tourney with WAY jacked up rules as a testrun of their ruleset, despite the fact that we had 4-5 tournaments a week for a long time already as OUR testrun for what works.
It was obvious to us that they ran the tournament to make a mockery of smash, they had no intention of working together with our ruleset. I mean the MLG ruleset was used in melee in Evo2k7, why weren’t they doing items then? And look how long it took them to pick up smash as a game for Evo, YEARS, despite it having a very successful competitive circuit, sponsors, etc… Heck more people showed up for Melee in 2k7 than almost every other game, and yet they still didn’t like smash as a fighting game, still talked trash about it, still said it wasn’t competitive, and still said it was a kids game, it’s a party game, etc…
This whole thing is just obvious bias being displayed by the top ranking members of the street fighter community and their power over rules/games/etc… at Evo.
Holy shit. This is the most correct thing I have ever read. Ever. Carry on good sir, carry on.
when you have to make a bunch of rules to limit one characters abilities he should be banned imo but who cares brawl is such a joke
previous comment was meant for this
People that say brawl is a joke are usually jealous of it’s tournament turnout in person so many times. We have so many tournaments with over 300 entrants for brawl and for melee, yet SRK still plays down super smash like it’s just a fad, or it’s not competitive, or it’s a joke in general.
I don’t really see what relevance Capcom has in whether Brawl is a fighting game. Brawl isn’t anything like other Fighters, and the entire point of a genre is to group a bunch of video games by similarities. Super Smash hardly has any similarities with other 2D fighters.
What tournaments? Items were banned right on the spot. This was a major criticism from EVO that the Brawl community was using the same rules from Melee despite it was a different game. The equivilant of this would be banning Akuma in SF3 and SF4 because, well, he’s Akuma.
Except it proves that items require skill.
Ken was good, but he lost because he didn’t know how to use the items. He got a Smash Ball a lot and CPU just rolling dodged behind him. That’s pretty sad on Ken’s part. The problem is the Brawl community has a predetermination about items so no matter how well EVO 08 went, it will always be bad in their eyes. Watch with a new train of thought and you’ll see what I mean.
When did you NOT act childish about it.
Also, lol at bold.
Yes, because they want to destroy the Smash Brothers competitive community (although I wish they would). Makes perfect sense. It can’t be that all the information they gave EVO was just examples of what might happen rather then hard facts and actual tournament results. OH no, it must be because they hate Smash.
We all know you despise it, but why?
All smash games are fighters by definition because fighting isn’t just a component of the game it is the game and all the mechanics are built around the concept of fighting, just because the smash games don’t feature traditional ko’s and aren’t as deep as other fighters doesn’t make them any less of a fighter in and of themselves. Capcom admitting it’s a fighter is like admitting neon green is green.
I haven’t played any smash game in at least a year but it looks like items are still banned lol, when will smash players learn to stop being scrubs and start playing to win?
Never. They will never reverse their decision on items. Especially if MLG is involved.
As soon as I played with items, it immediately made the game 10x better than without items.
wow never knew of this…
surprising
i lol’d.