i found this out about hmmm a little after evo 2002 or maybe a little before that i dont know around that time, but i dont really use him so i havent mentioned it that much…
on opponent wake up, jump xx fk xx fireball or super fireball…so basically your jumping straight up and FK at the same time, this acts as an over head and the fireball acts as stalling tool to land again…you can also cancel the fk into super fireball BUT i dont know if this combos i have tried to make it combo but i was not successful, because the imput is too fast for me, maybe if i had a japanese stick or something…yall can test it out and see if it actually does combo because if it does its somewhat useful as a trick…
Fuck that I was undoubtedly not first. Listen just cuz you don’t get it doesn’t mean you should be a little bitch about it. I don’t give a fuck if 50,000 other players use A-Yuri, Iori, Ken or anything I use but at least use them because you wanted to not because some CvS2 “God” started using them. What? Is it pissing you off that you use Fagat and CvS2 glitch just because they are t3h fucking 1337 f4gz0rz that pros use!? Yeah right bitch get your shit straight, in the end you just wanted to have the pros MAP OUT what’s good for you because your bitch ass couldn’t figure it out for yourself. What more of a definition for mindless drone do you fucking need!?
By the way, I [read]DO NOT[keep reading faget] use C-Ken. Have a day. :rolleyes:
since ken talk is all the rage these days… after stopping a crossup with jab shoryuken, if the opponent is over your head while falling you can hit them with a shinryuken, yay victory… oh yeah, and i will never throw gunter after a blocked spinning bird kick, i concede
Time to get to the (extensive) backlog of questions.
It’s done slightly early, works against 90% of jump ins. Guile’s low fierce can be done VERY deep, btw.
Nope. Can you imagine how long it would take to test the results of the combination of all 1000’ish moves in the game against each other?
Oh, and to the whole C-Chun vs C-Ken thing, my take is that C-Chun is a slightly better User char, while Ken is a VASTLY better Battery Char. Both are monsters as User Chars though. Why is Chun so weak as a Battery?
She cannot do any sort of damage without meter. This makes it extremely beneficial for her opponent to rush her down during that time (which also prevents her from building meter) since she doesn’t have anything scary to stop you with.
She’s always USING whatever meter she has, leaving nothing for the User Character… therefore, doing a really shitty job as a Battery.
Chun is better than Ken overall because of more favorable matches with the top tier. So why did Daigo/Choi switch to Ken? For one, they just like shotos a lot in every game. For another, it’s a fact that EVERYBODY misses the Chun combo from time to time. That shit sucks. (Choi switched to Ken on his main team a few months before Daigo did, btw)
As long as the anti-air fierce with Sagat is done when they’re still fairly high in the air, then yes it safe and pretty tricky. C-Sagat can do something similar with his lv2 tiger genocide super (which isn’t recommended though, just for fun and showing off). And the Cammy example? No. Way too slow. Just uppercut and do wake up games. I’d suggest the same with Sagat also for the most part.
Cross ups generally aren’t hard to block when done randomly… unless you’re using Rolento or Bison to a much lesser extent. Most hard to block cross ups require a set up, usually involving a knockdown first. Ken has really buff ones after his uppercuts and his lv1 shinryuken super. All 3 shotos have some really hard to block cross up set ups. Experiment with them a bit.
Maybe, but how often do you land big C-Terry combos against cornered opponents?
Tokido rarely shows up at the arcade anymore because of school. I definitely wouldn’t say he’s the best in Japan though. The most consistent winner would probably be Bas, but he tends to choke at big national tourneys. I played Tokido at More one time and not to sound arrogant or anything (since I’ve lost to just about every player under the sun in tourney), but I came away really unimpressed. He just seemed like a generic RC A-Sak/Bison/Blanka to me. I think I beat him 3-1 or something like that before I had to leave.
Actually, I can attest to this. When I was in Japan in August, nearly every good player in Japan was messing around with some kind of N-Groove team. Interestingly enough, the team was almost always a shoto/character you like/Sagat r2. For instance, Makoto used N-Kyo/Ken/Sagat. Daigo used Akuma/Ken/Sagat. Yuu used Kim/Ken/Sagat… and so on. It must have been some passing fad, since SBO qualifying tournaments have started and the teams are mostly C/A groove once again.
This and the whole “N-Groove can’t fight roll cancels” thing has always bewildered me. Why is that people think this way? A-Groove actually has LESS defensive options than N, and the whole C-Groove airblocking thing against RCs hardly ever comes into play. The most common counters to RC moves are either rolling (accessible to C/A AND N Grooves) or jumping straight up. Of course Honda headbutt, Blanka ball and RC elec are special cases, but the former 2 are most easily countered with N-Groove counter roll. RC elec has already been covered.
EDIT: Another reason people have been sleeping on N-Groove is because they forgot about Togawa. Togawa is definitely among the elite Japanese CvS2 players with his N-Iori/Ken/Sagat team… problem is he couldn’t compete in SBO because he was part of Arcadia staff; he was the announcer for CvS2. He also couldn’t attend last Evo, so people don’t get to see any N-Groove results. For whatever reason though, he IS competing in SBO this year. His team was among the first to qualify.
Oh, and in case you were wondering, no. I did not base my N-Iori around Togawa’s. I had already been using Iori for around a year when Togawa came to Evo 2k2. I did steal one trick from him, though. =o
To Orochi_Shoto: Tone down the act. You haven’t contributed anything at all to the thread knowledge-wise and are turning it into a flame war.
I’m sorry Buk, but it’s getting way too old, it happens every 3 months a new character is “unvealed” as though he/she/it was never in the game before. The only chance of getting ahead is to not stay behind the others.
It’s good to roll against people that RC, but anyone that’s really good will realize this and they’ll just have a field day throwing you. It’s a lot better just to wait for them to do their thing and then throw them, since that’s what you do against people that roll.
Overall though, A-Groove has less defensive options, but N-Groove’s meter really makes it hard to make it favorable groove.
You could get hit by an N-Groove (Alpha) Counter Attack and make them waste a super stock, or you could hit by a level one super. If you get Countered out of a rushdown attack, it’s only that much damage that can’t kill you, and you deplete a huge chunk of meter that they’ll need to bulid back up, something they can’t do if they’re being rushed down. In A-Groove it costs you half your meter, but since you get it back so fast it’s not a hinderance.
You could be the victim of a counter roll, only to throw the rolling character or hit them in the uninvincible frames of the end of the roll. There are very few normal moves that I’ve seen that take so long to recover at range that you can’t just go straight into a throw (or tech a throw), and if you counter roll out of a super, you’re possibly wasting an opportunity to punish when they finish up in most cases. (Though, it is handy for avoiding tick damage that will kill you.)
Once you’re airborne, the only thing you can do is go for an attack or empty jump. N-Groove characters without an air super are sitting ducks for uppercut priority. In A-Groove, at least, you can activate in the air and stop them dead in their tracks. C can air block, P can parry, and K can JD. N (and S) can just hope for the best.
It was after I realized all of this that I switched to K-Groove. I still use N against some A-Groove teams, but for the most part, it’s a utility groove, not an expert one.
Buk always posts gold that’s why we love him. I’m not gonna repeat myself I already said what I’m complaining about and regardless of what some of you will say it’s not shit it’s a valid point. However, I realize that to some of you none of that matters so I guess in reality it isn’t as big of a deal as I was thinking.
But do yourselves a favor and if you haven’t (most of you probably have) try to take a “shitty” character seriously. I did that with Yuri like a year ago and now I understand that she has serious mind game/annoyance abilities and despite her horrendous weaknesses she plays a damn fine game against Sagat as an example. I have zero regrets about playing her seriously thus far.
Sorry for all the bitching but it’s so bitchy that so many people were always saying Ken’s the worst shoto and he sucks and he’s useless cept maybe in A and now something’s different? Nothing’s changed, he’s always been there, that’s my whole point. To me it doesn’t matter very much who you use, just so long as you know that character really bloody well you know what i mean? I’m done bitching now.
Since there is all this talk about Ken. IMO Ken has always been good cuz of RC funky kick. I personally prefer Ken over the other Shotos simply cuz it is easier to react to Sagat’s cr FPs and st FP whiffs w/ a st RH than what Ryu has to do… walk a pixel in and trip or st FP… both of which I fuck up the timing. My team has been Ryu/Ken/Sagat C groove for along time.
One quick Q for Buk…
You know how you mentioned the whole jump straight up crossup after the Shinryuken (when comboed off a knockdown)… when I have noticed that sometimes when you for the lvl2 cancel into the FP DP… if you get 2 hits (cuz you do it early)… you get a similar knockdown situation… I’m trying to test out if you can do the same type of a crossup in this situation… but I don’t have the game here… so I can’t test it out… I was hoping you could check it out.
Heat…
that Akuma overhead thign sounds dope… I’ll test it out sometime. The only trick I have with Akuma is when I corner them, to do a Meaty HP (cuz usually they are sitting their waiting for the crossup teleport, and cancel into a teleport and go low or RD… usually the blockstun from the FP keeps them hitting me out of the teleport easily. Its a shitty trick… but one nonetheless. Akuma should have his A3 hopkick… and so should Ryu… that would make them pimp.
I still don’t understand why you are bitching though? Why does it bother you if someone decides to XCOPY something? That is a good way to learn things.
USA always xcopy japan in all the SFs except marvel. If we didn’t, we’d be further behind.
So what you’re saying is with shoto’s jump like, ‘onto’ them when they’re knocked down, then at the last second press forward?
On the note of Hopkicks, with Ryu what is the advantage of using Forward Mk (Hopkick) over lk Whirlwind Kick? WW kick knocks down, does more dmg, and I think is safer on block. I think Ryu can get hit out of the hop kick even when it connects, as a matter of fact, I think he gains frame advatage if they block it and LOSES frame advatage if it hits. Can anyone clear this up for me?
Dude… What it sounds like to me, is you are trying to get some sort of respect or something from everyone, because you happened to be playing what you call “shitty” characters from day one… Yuri is DEFINTIELY, not a shitty character. She has a few really good pokes, very good zoning game with the fireball, a nice dragon, easy custom setups, and probably one of the quickest overheads in the game. Now please stop trying to point out the fact that you play that team please…
You don’t roll randomly, you roll in anticipation/on reaction to the the RCed move. It’s like SF2: You don’t randomly jump at shotos, you jump when you think the fireball is coming. Of course, in either situation you get punished if you guessed wrong, but you get rewarded by MUCH more if you guessed right. And if your opponent is trying to bait your roll, guess what? They’re not RCing anymore. Problem solved… for the time being at least.
This is assuming you are right next to your opponent, which most of the time is not the case. Some RCs are VERY difficult to throw also… some CAN’T be thrown in some situations.
Another mis-informed myth. A-groove gets meter at the EXACT same rate as N-groove. In the time that it takes for A-Groove to get a level 1, N-groove gets a ball. So by the time A-Groove has CC, N-groove has a level 3.
Again, you don’t counter roll randomly. Counter rolls are one of the most under-estimated things in CvS2. There are LOTS of situations where counter rolls get you GUARANTEED combos. RC Blanka ball/headbutt? Free combo. K-Sagat trying to burn his meter by doing a random low forward into low tiger super? Free combo. Guardcrush/chip damage CC? Usually a free combo. And many, many more applications…
I don’t think you get how jumping straight up to counter an RC works. Let’s say I’m Sagat, and A-Sakura is trying to get in. Like most shitty Sakuras in this situation, she does a random RC roundhouse hurricane kick. I see this coming, so at the right range I jump straight up on reaction. Sakura lands right under me, which allows me to come down with a big, fat, free jump in combo of choice. Sakura learns her lesson the hard way. This is the most common way to counter RCs, since jumping straight up is relatively low risk (depending on what character you’re fighting), and the payoff is huge if the opponent does do the RC you’re looking for. And also, there’s really only 3 airblockable anti-airs in the game that matter: Guile’s flash kick, Blanka’s RC ball and Blanka’s jump straight up fierce.
That’s funny, because IMO K-Groove has the least RC defense of any groove.
I guess it bothers me because I honestly don’t think we NEED to XCOPY as you call it. There’s no reason why Japan should always be ahead IMO, they have no uber genetic superiority or anything. When the game was new I think it was the case that we needed to copy them to stay in the game but do you really think that’s still the case?
And if you think I’m into this bitching because of a desire for respect you’re an idiot. I’m not even at this board enough to give a rats ass about how respected I am or am not here. Sorry, please try again. :rolleyes: :lame:
When was I trying to point out the fact that i play that team anyways? I was trying to point out that there was nothing stopping you guys from figuring out how good Ken’s cross-up and C-Groove and shit was on your own. THAT IS IT. So why are we still talking about this shit?
I hope to be done talking about this. I don’t mean to stick my nose up high or cut others down (I know I kinda did). My apologies, I just wish more people would rely less on pros to figure the good stuff out for them. Maybe it’s just me but it seems like that’s all I read when I come here. So again, sorry to have offended you (somehow).
aight good, the issue is resolved, so let’s continue with good discussion and no flaming.
to gunter or buktooth
i’m wondering what new things you saw with N-groove in japan. i figure the repeated running jab patterns are not done anymore like they were in the beginning of cvs2 because of roll cancelling. did players try to pop stock and land a level 3 or use the balls by counter rolling and landing level 1’s? was it just smarter play and lots of small jump crossup tricks or something else?
i’m just interested why players in japan started to pick up N-groove again.
Uh I don’t see how Roll canceling is gonna stop running jabs? I mean… its really hard to predict when to RC a running jab… its not like people consistently RC openings in jab, jab or short, short strings with chars. Plus… ok… I am A Hibiki… they are doing running jab/shorts… now I am blocking… do I want to risk doing an RC slash to stop it… cuz its not like they can’t run and roll my slash and combo me. I mean come on… people use to do running jab against DP chars before RCs… its not they couldn’t get DPed for doing them… they could… but it wasn’t worth the risk. And if you can reversal RC electricity with Blanka between running jabs… more power to you. For the most part… RCing running jabs is not worth it underless it is a completely safe RC like honda head butt… or blanka ball vs chars who can’t punish it. IMO… the fact that N groove is the only groove with low jumps (thereby more tricks and wakeup game) and RCs is prolly why they play it. I still personally prefer C groove Shotos. I dunno I like Shoto dash and need airblock simply cuz my Sagat is shitty and jumps up and down alot. Also… I like C groove building meter fast… since I need the Shoto super cancels. N groove is good… but I dunno… lvl2 super cancels work more for me than low jumps. I do like Iori in N groove… since he can do ambiguous roll off of anything… I just don’t know who else to play in N groove (outside Iori, Sagat).
When there is a gap in the chain, if they run again you can rc pretty well on reaction. Regardless if they attack or try to stop their run they will be hit out of it.
ya dude its dope, here is a funny corner trick dealing with teleport…
once you are in the corner and you knock down they opponent, like you said they expect a teleport, so here is what i do, i do the teleport anyway then i lk hurricane while they are still down and recross them up like that then do what ever you want RD or DP or some crouching moves…
whats even better than that is, do the same thing teleport then lk hurricane kick for the cross up again then teleport AGAIN then do whatever you want hahaha funny stuff…
oh if any of you guys use K-akuma after air JD you can super fireball and it will hit you can also dive kick after JD…
