Campbell's Tip Of The Day

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
201

Thanks a lot. That’s some pretty detailed information. I’m a big fan of shortcuts to facilitate input. But my main thing about this throw thing was that I don’t understand whether the yes-I-am-charged-flag is raised DURING the throw, BEFORE or AFTER. The reason why I think this is odd is because there was some discussion about bison being able to do throw -> mega-psycho-crusher. My explenation was that you can’t do it because you lose your charge during the throw, and the system starts over after you release the other guy.

If this is true, then the time after the bite-throw hardly seems enough to charge for the elec-ball super… I’m confused.

202

I have know Idea why stuff works in CVS2? If it happens… It happens.:o Ignorace is bliss:rolleyes:
All I know is… if you mash hard enough(get enough hits) you should get enough time to charge after Blanka’s Bite throw.
Blanka’s kick throw is another story… you lose charge all together? I think is was explained in detail but dont know/TMI.

But you can pretty much cross up super after any of blanka’s knock down’s(sweeps/thows/supers) as long as you can time/space it right.
My blanka is trash anyways…
I got no love for the bastard.:mad: He’s fun to play though. Like driving a stick shift… in a fast sports car.:o

No D

203

Well usually when mashing Blanka’s punch throw I only ACTUALLY mash for like 1 sec, then I just hold back and mash punches to keep charge.

204

**

AARON [NO D]:

My intial question is this for the blanka hop forward then super

Ok, your biting *munch munch

Now once that last bite is intiated and he flips out. If I was to HOP FORWARD…I have to hold FORWARD and hit lk+mk+rh right??

Or does a NUETRAL Lk+Mk+Rh give me the FORWARD HOP? If you say the first option of [FORWARD + KKK] that means a crossup then I am charging to exploit the ball the opposite direction. If you say nuetral, how dow a 720 give me the complete charge[d] motion?? Is it similar to my standing flash kick with guile out of a combo though [jumping lk, lp, lk, standing lk, flash kick]?

This is something I have to see done in hand motion sense. Im not saying your wrong Aaron, cause the Japanese come up with some slick stuff, but instead of a video of it being done, someone need to make a split screen with the hand motions too… :lol:

Im telling you dexterity is a muthafucca…**

205

Geese, this is the same thing you did back on page 5-6 lol. I could be wrong but i don’t think SF is played the way you think it is. A LOT of SF is planning the match and breaking it down beforehand, not just saying ‘I don’t see the point oh well i’ll figure it out later cause i’m superman’.

A perfect example is this chun vs rog thing. I think that it was a good tangent, you didn’t see the point of it, so you said short upper and c.fierce beat everything. Good approach.

Buk responded with a situation where only strong headbutt works. Good response

Now here is where i have the problem: “Buk, i dunno about u but in those situations, i wouldn’t do anything with Rog. I’d rather roll out of the way.”

There was 3 posts spent on learning why it’s useful to learn strong HB, and excatly when it doesn’t work. Your final take on the subject is:“Nah i’m just gonna block”. W T F. You mightaswell have just said “Nah i’m just gonna lose”. YOUR post before says specifically ''If you can’t react fast enough to a jumpin with Rog, that’s your fault." Now we have a situation that isn’t even about reaction, it’s about math: “Rog gets thrown + Chun jump short = FREE COUNTER THANK YOU NO THOUGHT REQUIRED”. You don’t want to take that, but your still planning to react later (when the situation actually has risk) ??? sorry not happening.

You follow it with: “Headbutt doesn’t seem reliable at all.” It was just proven reliable! Just not your context of reliable (reacting on the fly freestlyin), but your 2 reliable counters were defeated already, giving up and blocking is far worse, and i wouldn’t roll if i were you, so WHAT did you have that was, in reality, reliable, nothing! Now you have 1! that is improvement!

Now you might be saying wtf it’s not a big deal, but what if I now base my chun vs rog gameplan around landing a throw-> j.short ->basic mixup, if it fails, try for throw later and repeat, and in the meantime don’t give my free win away. It’s not like you even figured it out, you just needed to read it and say ‘ok sounds good’.

Startup frames? Do it deep enough so it hits them while in the air, but while your on the ground, if you do things that way, you never have to react, and never have to worry about airblock. Ok theres the 1% of the time that you don’t know the excat pixel distance, but that is minor and again is irrelavant until we get the main antiair defenses 100% down. On the athena vs vega tip you made a 1% occourance (reacting to vega j.rh at a very specific range) out like it was the biggest deal in the world and made strong DP an unreliable antiair. THAT is when you block, you don’t block a setup situation you already know how to counter for free.

I might be taking liberties here (and i don’t care if i am cause for most of us, i’m right), but i think that is from your focus on reacting to the situation instead of planning it out leaving only a few things to react to. Sure those things that will win you a close finals match, but they won’t get you there.

Now i know this is a wtf kinda post and i’m sorry for interrupting the cvs2 strategy with it, but i was reading those two responses by Geese, and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. We ignore what wins us matches, and go try to learn all the extras. The only difference is that he actually said it, but most of us definately think that way.

206

great post. I just hope Geese can read it and understand.

207

I understand what you’re trying to say, and I’m aware some people get aggrivated by my posts, but I call it the way I see it. Rog’s Headbutt comes out too slow, and is not worth the risk of whiffing if it doesn’t heatseek crossup such as Chun’s j. short especially since someone like Chun Li can punish a long range high recovery whiff such as a strong Headbutt. That’s like attempting a Guile forward Flash Kick against a Blanka crossup forward. I already mentioned I’m pretty sure it beats Blanka’s crossup forward clean, and yet I STILL wouldn’t be doing it most of the time because the risk is too high, and the Flash Kick just isn’t a good enough move to warrant the risk. Now take the Flash Kick in this situation and substitute it for Rog’s Headbutt.

If the Headbutt was so great, I’m sure somebody would have gone on about it’s usefulness by now. Yes, this is a poor excuse for it’s lack of shall we say popularity, but it’s a common sense excuse. Still, nobody has said whether it can be airblocked, and nobody has mentioned if it actually works against high priority crossups. Think about this. Ryu’s jab Shoryuken has a few frames of full body invincibility, but that doesn’t mean it won’t trade (not in Ryu’s favor might I add) against certain well time high priority jumpins. And at least we know that a deep Shoryuken can’t be airblocked and it has quick startup. Rog’s Headbutt is not only “cloudy” as of know (meaning not everything is known about it), but it’s also visibly weaker then most anti-airs. So when I make these assumptions (ASS-umptions…whatever), it’s because the move doesn’t look good on paper OR on screen.

208

1/16/04:

Team Formation 101 part 1, Introduction:

Aside from the obvious “having characters compatible with the groove you pick” part, team formation really hasn’t been given much thought in CvS2. While it might not be nearly as important in CvS2 as it is in a game like MvC2, having an intelligently thought out team and order can be significantly advantageous. Conversely, having a team with a bunch of incompatible characters and in the wrong order can severely hurt your chances at winning.

Of course, team members/order matters very little in S and K groove… the grooves that don’t build meter normally. In these two grooves just a basic X/X/Anchor formation is usually ideal. This is one of the inherent advantages to these two grooves also, since you can just flip the order of your team around to counter team your opponent without suffering any real meter issues.

However, for C/A/P/N Grooves, team formation and order is something that needs attention. Most successful teams follow the Battery/User/Anchor set up.

For those of you that don’t play MvC2, a Battery character has one main purpose: to build meter. Of course, it’s generally preferred if the battery character builds meter quickly just by fighting normally. In CvS2, battery characters usually fight great without having much need for the meter they’ve gained, saving it for the “User” character to expend. Of course, almost any given opportunity to land a big super/CC should be taken if possible. As a curiosity, specialized Battery characters tend to be either 100% defense OR 100% offense.

A User character is one that makes great use of the meter at hand. They are so powerful with meter that they alone justify having a battery character. Oftentimes, the User character simply CAN’T fight without meter and is rendered quite helpless, having to resort to running away and building meter while taking as little damage as possible. Again, this underscores the importance of having a Battery character first on the team.

EDIT: Having a character that doesn’t have much use for meter in the user slot is generally a huge waste. That’s a whole lot of damage you’re missing out on.

Lastly, the Anchor character is generally the character you feel the most confident in. This gives a much-needed mental edge in the closing rounds of a fight. The Anchor character should ideally possess strong offensive capabilities to make a big comeback, and also should be really buff defensively to hold onto whatever lead you might have. The anchor character should also be able to fight well without meter (since the User probably used it all) as well as having good ways to use it (to facilitate big comebacks). In short, the Anchor character should be very well rounded.

Tomorrow, a chart on the Battery/User/Anchor capabilities of all Capcom characters.

Oh, and anybody coming in and asking whether X/X/X is a good team will be shot on sight. You’re supposed to use the charts to figure it out yourselves.

209

Is C-groove Kyo/Chun/…just kidding!

210

Yeah, like Bison. He can’t do shit without meter so you don’t see him as battery. So what are you guy’s top battery characters? These are the ones I think are good:

Sak
Akuma
Rolento
Yamazaki
Chang (spinning ball cancel gives a lot of meter)

People who need meter:

Chun
Bison

211

This is the last reply I will make about this topic.

  1. CvS2 on this side of the ocean suffers from an overall lack of creativity and innovation. People are only willing to try what they’ve seen somebody else do, or settle for the obvious. Nobody is willing to experiment like they used to in the days of SF2. They just look at moves like Athena strong uppercut and Rog strong headbutt and dismiss them without even trying them.
  2. How many REALLY good CvS2 Rog players have you seen? I’ve only seen somewhat decent ones (Nelson when he used to use him).

Yes it can be airblocked, which still doesn’t mean it’s a bad anti-air. Guile’s flash kick is a great anti-air. Since these are both side-neutral inputs and are simple d,u motions, problematic things like high cross ups and low jumps are cake to anti-air if you have the charge. Like Guile, most of Balrogs anti-airs CAN’T be airblocked. This discourages empty jump ins. Most importantly, strong headbutt is an OPTION whereas before you had NONE. And does it work against high-priority cross ups? It’s INVINCIBLE. It has more priority than any cross up.

Ryu’s jab dp has LOWER body invul, which is why it works fine on the ground and not as anti-air. Also, Ryu’s jab dp does 1600. The vast majority of jump ins do less than that. NONE do more than that. How is the trade not in Ryu’s favor?

Not everything is known about it… SHOULDN’T THAT MEAN YOU SHOULD TRY IT BEFORE PASSING JUDGEMENT? Visibly weaker than most anti-airs? After several tests, strong headbutt has yet to TRADE with anything. Doesn’t look good on paper? It has 9 WHOLE FRAMES of upper body invul. What do you want? Doesn’t look good on screen? Maybe fierce headbutt doesn’t, but have you even tried strong headbutt?

212

Is Maki/Raiden/Hibiki a good team LOL

buk is probably going to comment on this eventually, but I think I should say something about it.

The Battery/User/Anchor thing is a completely sound and preffered strategy. In fact, I follow this somewhat with Maki (battery), Raiden (user), and my R2 Hibiki (which I like to call my “point” character).

However, there are going to be situtations where using the same order every time is not going to work. I face this many times fighting against Blanka and M.Bison (Vega) users. Maki is a horrible Blanka matchup, and Hibiki is a bad Bison matchup. If I know someone is going to put Bison last, I’m always going to put my Hibiki first, because I know I can do more total team damage against non-Bison characters then I could against Bison, even though Hibiki is considered my point character.

This is why, although it’s always good to keep the best order for your team as possible, there will be plenty of situations where you’ll need to change it up. You should be comfortable switching your order up in any groove to always try to get matches to be in your favor. You should feel confident about occasionally putting your R2 out first, or putting your weakest character or battery out last, since as long as the character matchups are in your favor, you shouldn’t have too much trouble winning.

The idea of ordering your characters goes back to the SNK games, of course. The idea is to disrupt the other person’s flow of characters while still keeping yours intact. If you can screw them up, even by the tiniest bit, before a match starts, then you’ve already got yourself a nice advantage. Basically, character matchups are more important than meter usage. If you have a poor matchup, your meter won’t build quite as well, and if you’ve a favorable one, your meter will build quickly anyway.

Here are some order select tips (“The strategy game has already begun”):

  • If someone just goes up and hits start, then you obviously already what their order will be. Shuffle your team around accordingly.

  • You, on the other hand, should never hit the start button to settle on an order. If you want to go 1-2-3, then use jab-short then strong-forward. You should never give your opponent the advantage of knowing what order your characters are set in, even if you want the order you see on the screen.

  • If your opponent is the type that likes to see if you hit start so he can set his order favorably, here’s how you can screw him over. Guess the order that he’ll set based on your 1-2-3. Select your lead character based on that, but at the same time you do, pretend that you’re hitting the start button. The screen will flash, the other guy will set his order thinking you’re all done, then you can lock-in your other choice and enjoy a good advantage, as long as you guessed at his order correctly.

  • In case someone is being an ass and is peeking at your hands to see which order you’re setting, you should cover all the buttons with your hand, then apply pressure in the appropriate area to make your selections. If done correctly, it’s really hard to make out what you’ve hit unless they’re really making it obvious they’re looking at your picks, which I doubt anyone would do.

  • If you’re having a hard time figuring out what order the other guy might put his characters in, remember this golden rule: Assume the worst. The worst thing that could happen is that every matchup you have is a bad one against his characters. Of course, if you think about ordering your characters for too long, you won’t be able order them at all, so your saftey net is the order you originally selected. Make sure you’re comfortable with it.

  • Character order selection starts at the character select and ratio screens. Generally, if a character is selected last or is assigned R2, it’s a good chance that you’ll see them last in order. Conversely, if you really want to screw up your opponent’s ordering game, select your R2 character second, so that they’ll be in the middle when you go to order them. They won’t know whether or not to order their team to take out the R2 last, or your third character last.

To sum it up, you should really only shuffle your characters around only when you know you can get one or two favorable matchups, or avoid any unfavorable ones. I would imagine that 80% of the time, you’re not going to need to change your order around. However, with the characters I choose to use (and more importantly, choose not to use), character order is literally the only defense I have against some of the more, erm, ‘powerful’ characters. After all, what better defense does a Maki have against a Blanka than never having to fight him?

That’s all I got about ordering, I hope I didn’t steal some of your thunder, buk.

213

Ummm i just wanted to say, how about we let buk give the strats. This is his thread, and i don’t think we should put long posts of our own strats in it. If u wanna say something just make it a few lines not a whole page. I’m not flaming u windyman just making a suggestion to u and everyone else in the thread.

Anyways i have a question for Buk. I have noticed that everyones team revovles around strats to fight against top tier characters. For example i use Ken R2/chun/kim. My whole game with them was to find out wut works against the top tier characters. I was just wondering wut u thought of this trend? Everyone’s team is revolved around this, even the guy that uses Vice, sim, and Ryo. Everyone has thier own particular strats to fighting the top characters, But when it comes fighting a different team things go awry. so just wondering about your opinion about this.

214

Buk, if it works, good. Btw, when an uppercut trades, it doesn’t do full damage, even if it’s one hit like Ryu’s. And Ryu does have a few full body invincibility frames, but less then a fierce one. Gunter wsa the one who had this information laid out a while back.

215

Heh, sorry. I think I got a little carried away when he started talking about team formation, and since that and character order is so important to me I needed to get that out.

Besides, it’s not like more useful information is bad for you, right?

216

yo it’s all good. i read through your post and did find it useful, but i just don’t think we all should post our own strats in his thread. There’s tons of strats i wanna post, but i wanna let buk do the talking. After all it is his thread.

217

Battery/User/Anchor

hey bucky, i know it aint muy importantay but i have my user at ratio 2 (sagat) cause well he uses the supers with ease and causes the most chaos, but everybody tells me why i put my ration 2 character in the middle. The reason i have it there is to well to make sure the first two of my opponents characters are nonexistent and be able to take out the last while having a safety blanket with my real anchor (chun li). Seeing everybody having there first two characters ratio one my user being able to easily take them out, and my anchor being able to turtle and play footsies all day long. if anybody ask my builder is cammy. So how important is it to have your anchor being ratio two, and anybody putting there ratio two sagat first is just wrong.

218

I use C Blanka, Chun, Sagat for the reasons of the battery/user/anchor stuff. C Blanka is also a great Anchor too, but I like him as a battery personally, C Chun is great with meter and she usually has a lv 3 after I’m done with Blanka, and C Sagat’s just all around good, heh. Also Guile is a great battery (old team Daigo), but overall I think C/K Sagat is the best anchor in the game.

219

Uh… if a 1-hit DP trades, it does MORE damage than normal, last time I looked. Counter hits dealing 20% more damage and all. Even if the base damage mysteriously shrank, a 1-hit DP would still do more damage on a trade than normal.

Need proof? Ken’s jab DP does 1600 normally. On a trade, it does 1920. Which is 20% more than 1600. Trades do normal CH damage. Go try it out if you don’t believe me.

220

When an uppercut TRADES, it still does the damage it would have done if it hit CLEAN. There is more than one hitting point of an uppercut, even if it is only one hit. If it hits DEEP it is more damage than if it hits fully extended. If you trade on a DEEP uppercut, you will still get the damage of the DEEP uppercut. Which is why trading on an uppercut and then comboing off of it (anti-air CC, Morrigan’s Air Raging Demon, Kyo’s cloud super, etc.) is so useful. You get a damaging hit to begin with (it’s actually even MORE damaging than usual, because since you traded, it turns into a counter hit, like CD said), and then you get free damage afterwards.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and all of Ryu’s full-body invincibility is used up for the startup frames of the DP, so by the time the DP starts to actually HIT, there is only Below-the-Chest invincibility - i.e. you are vulnerable above the chest, which causes trades.