Obvious Cammy hater Packs (lol) thinks Cammy’s c LP should be +1 on block, saying “what light button in the game isn’t plus?”
Bison has a minus light afaik,but it’s not like he is lacking in the plus frames department.
Haven’t played my Cammy in forever, will see how these changes affect her overall gameplan.
^ at 27:45 they talk about Cammy and make excellent points.
You can now 100% “take the throw” against Cammy. Very reduced pressure in the corner.
c LP 0 on block means a few things. A well placed divekick will put her at 0 because she uses c LP to followup the well placed divekick. The counter hit fishing string we’re all used to using, c LP, c MP, isn’t real and can be interrupted by 3f buttons now, am I right?
Stun nerfs across the board, v reversal -6, b+MP now no longer working as a proper anti air, it’s harder to win with her now.
“You can now 100% “take the throw” against Cammy. Very reduced pressure in the corner.” No man there is no pressure now. If they stand after the throw only st mk and cr hp reach. You can’t get anything off of that unless you have V-Trigger. Her corner pressure went from possibly the best in the game to non existent. What they did to Cammy’s throw would be the equivalent of removing Karin’s EX juggles. Imagine how she’d have to play if she only got one EX tenko and how much more work it would be for her to win. They basically removed Cammy’s gameplan of getting your opponent into the corner and conditioning them to tech so you could shimmy. Now she’s basically just a neutral character with up close pressure equivalent to Ryu or Sakura (both have 3 light confirms now) but with no overhead or fireball. She has worse normals and less damage than Karin, so the only reason to play her over Karin now is the DP, but if you can get good with anti airing with Karin it’s a no brainer who you should play.
Taking the throw means absolutely nothing now although you won’t really need to take the throw anyway because all of her strings can just be back dashed out of now with the cr lp nerf for less roll out damage and pressure. Basically if they see jab they can just mash jab like he mentioned in the video and it stuffs everything. If they see st lk, cr mp or st mp they can just back dash to safety. They’ll get rolled out at worse into a scramble state into which cammy’s 3 frame can no longer be used effectively in a scramble as it’s 0 on block. Like he said in the video you can just wait for them to wake up with cr lp and then mash jab after, so cr lp use is basically dead unless you do cr lp cancelled into st lp which is a very easy a predictable string to deal with as it’s not a frame trap until the cr mp is used after so again just mash jab after cr lp and you’re safe.
“The counter hit fishing string we’re all used to using, c LP, c MP, isn’t real and can be interrupted by 3f buttons now, am I right?” Correct. All of her strings from cr lp can now all be interrupted. cr lp into b mp, cr lp in cr mp, and cr lp into grab all lose to 3 frame normals. Also if you use cr lp after a divekick your turn is basically over. You will have to be +2 on divekick at best so you can use a st lp now to continue on block. Capcom wanted to be sure all the Cammy pressure people complained about was over once it was attempted. It is clear they only want her to be rewarded for hits confirms, and hit confirms alone. That is why all the cr lp CH combos still work, but only on hit. Problem is you can’t confirm a meaty cr lp, so you have to commit, but if you commit you get counter hit so why use cr lp over st lk anymore? It totally defeated the purpose of why they nerfed it in the first place per the developer notes as now all Cammy’s are just going to use st lk instead. With cr lp being +2 at least we had some options.
Alright guys hear me out on this and let me know what you think. I believe Cammy’s original gameplan has been so severely changed due to the nerfs this season along with the universal nerfs that she has to be played differently than we are used to thinking. All of the patch notes are pointing to Capcom wanting her to be a purely hit confirm character. There will be no more throws/shimmies, mix ups, or pressuring until we can corner them into stun. She will be mainly a character fishing for confirms in the neutral with solid oki upon success and utter destruction upon failure (think more like how Karin plays but with better anti air and less damage and stun).
Due to these changes I think VTII is actually looking viable and possibly better than VTI now. I know what you are thinking VTII sucks balls, but hear me out. VTII was buffed and Cammy’s pressure and throw game were severely nerfed. VT1 allows for a plus frame dive kick, but it’s predictable and can be easily avoided with a jump back. Doing a shimmy on block was legitimate as you could scare them into being stunned, but this is much less likely to occur with the throw and stun nerfs. On hit VT1’s activation makes for an easy confirm but it’s damage and stun is just ok especially if you use both charges.
VTII on the other hand now allows for true pressure strings on block and confirm-able strings on hit with st mp into st hp with both dash charges not just one. Cr hp VTII dash on block can be continued with pressure into a b. mp block string which can be confirmed after into st hp on counter hit. This means after a forward throw in the corner you could go for a cr hp and either hit confirm it or go in for a pressure string. This is our only legitimate way now to get follow up pressure in the corner after a grab. I realize this is still worse than what it was before, but if it’s all we got so we might as well try and use it right?
The +1 buff to the dash also allows us to fish for hits in the neutral with st hp or cr hp buffered into VTII dash in which you can follow up with a target combo for just as good or better damage than VT1’s similar confirm. Before only cr hp could be used which is slow and risky to use, so this was a nice buff to VTII that makes it more appealing. It’s basically a more damaging and easier option then buffering into spiral arrow or DP to be honest and it’s safe on block so if you happen to screw up it’s not like messing up a spiral arrow where you lose 40% of your life.
VTII first activation also allows you to go through up close fireballs for huge damage. Fireball characters will have to respect you in the neutral if you have VTII as you can stand in footsie range and react activate hop grab with it to punish into st hp dp CA for 519 damage. Guile’s are not going to want to sonic boom at you once you have VTII ready to go once they get caught by a few of these.
On top of that we also have the hop grab and hop overhead which can also be used as confirmable hits, but it comes at the cost of damage vs stun. Basically Capcom made it so you can either get lots of damage and little stun or lots of stun and little damage so you’ll need to decide which is more necessary at the moment. For a good mix of both just use the VTII Dash. Since Capcom wants Cammy to be mainly a confirmable character using the hop grab or overhead on block is a huge risk, hence why it’s so negative on block, but it can work if you want to risk it.
Below is a breakdown of what I’ve found to be uses for VTII and some other options you may want to try out. Let me know what you think.
-
First dash activation optimal st mp, st hp dash cr mp cr mp hk SA/DP 250/413. If opponents crouching opponent after dash use cr mp b.mp TC combo 278 / 450. You can also confirm cr hp, VTII hop+kick, tc DP/SA 276/420
-
Second activation use as any confirm that ends with st hp to do dash into cr lp TC DP/SA, 310/516
In the neutral: counter hit or whiff punish with st hp/cr hp into VTII Dash will give you a cr mp, cr mp combo or a dash TC combo for 298/455. This is a great buffer tool in the neutral.
On block uses (low risk): you can use a blocked st hp (on 1st activation) or cr hp (on 2nd activation) to do a b. mp pressure string frame trap (cr lp can be used also, but loses to mashing after and st lk can trade with 3 frames). If cr hp hits you can go into TC combo, if its blocked you can confirm off the b mp counter hit, if that’s blocked you can go for cr mp confirm into st hp or cr mk combo. This is also a good way to get back in from a forward throw in the corner or to push you out of the corner as you can pressure after the block.
On block uses (high risk): You can use the first VTII hop activation off a blocked st mp to go for a tight grab. It will beat all 3 frames, but will lose to invincible reversals or jumps. Using hop off of a blocked cr hp allows for meaty overhead (the cannot jab or jump but they can stand up to block it on invincible reversal). Again this is high risk so I don’t really recommend it over hit confirming, but it’s an option. It’s best to use the hop attack to beat fireballs otherwise you should be confirming into dashes.
Note: CC uses after EX DP have changed due to 1.2x multipler it’s now better to go back to the st hk (CC), cr mp, dp CA combo for 473/460. For a while st mp, st hp, dp CA for 485/375 was better due to the damage nerf to CC but now it’s closer in damage and has more stun.
Here are some VTII options for after a blocked EX DP that aren’t necessarily better than the standard CC Cammy combo, but they may help in certain situations where a little more damage would kill or little more stun would stun.
VTII 1st uses after EX DP. Activate 1st VT hop so you catch them as they are landing and go for grab into hp dp CA 519/255 for more damage.
VTII 2nd uses after EX DP. Do st mp cr hp dash b mp tc dp CA for a little more damage and stun than the regular combo 499/495
Also if you land a CC st hk in the neutral you can confirm into hop kick for 322/465 but its not really worth it over the slight walk up st mp crush counter combo as it’s only like 36 more damage for one charge use. It’s better to do a regular CC combo and then save the 2nd charge for later. Capcom really doesn’t want us using CC, plus VT, and CA together so if you are ever in doubt spread them out.
I’m still playing around with VTII options so I’ll post anything new I find, but let me know what you think.
So in short, a footsies rushdown character has been reduced to a worse Karin.
Why play her now, when Karin and even Falke offer everything she did, just better.
It’s Capcom giving in to all the crying, nothing less.
She was in a very good and solid spot, but was nowhere near as tournament dominant as Menat or Akuma, both charaters who didn’t get nearly as hard as she was.
Akuma still has all his bullshit, Menat can still steal rounds and Falke will be the new problem of the Season in no time.
Capcom has shown often enough, that they only listen to the camp that crys the loudest.
If you want your char back, start to cry as loud as you can. And do it soon.
The funny thing is most Cammy’s aren’t saying anything as they know it will fall on deaf ears, so why even try to fight it? You either stick with her or move onto someone else cause no amount of crying about the nerf is going to change anything. They did the same thing to Chun and even after literally everyone jumped ship capcom never brought back anything they nerfed on her. Instead they just changed how she played. Cobelcog took it on the chin like a champ even making a video talking about alternatives rather than outright saying some of the nerfs were bs. Kbrad is still trying to act like she is top 5 despite having much success calling it an “off” day or something. Meanwhile NL and Verlorean are playing Akuma/Ibuki and testing out other characters like Sakura/Ryu. I mean even in the frame advantage video they are saying the cr lp nerf was stupid, however despite all of this I just saw a tweet the other day from a Sakura player saying Cammy’s still busted. I hope they revert the cr lp nerf at least, but I doubt it’s going to happen.
I didn’t know vt2 went through fireballs. Did I read that combo right that Cammy can do c HP, f+HP+HK, s MP, s HP, f+HP+HK, c MP, c MP, drill? Big combo.
I disagree with your argument about how opponents can just jump away VS V trigger 1 because that’s ok for Cammy as the opponent will put themselves in the corner. Or you can punish their jump backs with v trigger 1 drill. Not big damage and you of course spent one of your 2 v trigger moves, but you’re then able to be at close range for pressure.
Yeah Akuma is the same and he was equally or more dominant. I’ve grown fond of Cammy’s butt cheeks. I can’t switch characters. But I agree that switching to Karin is the obvious thing to do if you’re a pro and money matters. Karin has a DP too. I think when they buffed every character’s heavy button anti air, Karin’s c HP became legit. I’ve faced some STRONG Karins in Ranked. Her s LP still anti airs!
I’ve switched from b+MP to s HK VS Vega’s Wall Dive. s HK works! Slow, but it won’t lose to Vega’s crossup wall dive like DP does.
I think even 4f moves like Abigail’s c LK can interrupt c LP, c MP.
Doesn’t work. Maybe I misread it:
Yeah, even 4f characters like Nash, a previously good matchup for Cammy imo, can interrupt:
No you read it wrong. Here are optimal uses:
-
First dash activation only: st mp, st hp VTII dash cr mp cr mp hk SA/DP 250/413. If opponents crouching opponent after dash use cr mp b.mp TC combo 278 / 450. You can also confirm cr hp, VTII hop+kick, tc DP/SA 276/420
-
Second dash activation use as any confirm that ends with st hp to do dash into cr lp TC DP/SA, 310/516
You can use both charges if you want but it’s only like 10 more damage due to damage scaling dropping to 10%. To use both charges you can do st mp (CH), cr hp, vtII dash, st mp, st hp vtII dash cr lp, TC, SA/DP. It only does 274 damage/483 stun but it does have a ton of corner carry. You’re basically wasting a charge using it though as just doing the first combo gives you 268/450
Getting opponents to the corner does not matter as much anymore since she has no throw pressure in the corner. VT1 still has it’s uses but in certain match ups VTII would be the right choice. Against Karin I would use VT1 for example. Against Guile I’d use VT2.
Yeah just did her 2 new trials. Oops.
This is our fault. We were silent for too long. We thought the tier whores losing with her and going back to their mains would be enough but we were wrong. We need to open our mouths and let our voices be heard. Reddit, YouTube, Twitter. And we can’t let pros try to be complacent and pacify us and tell us “it’s not that bad.” Because yo, it really is that bad.
There is nothing we can do.
I refuse to get on one level with Sagat player who cry at Capcom for him not being broken.
But Sagat was bad. What was pathetic was all the bitching in the first place that Cammy was OP all because their mains no longer had throw loops, safe crush counter buttons, and AA jab resets. The amount of misinformation being spread was insane.
1 Like
The complains about Sagat were literally that he wasn’t broken.
I read enough comments that he should be broken, because he is Sagat.
Yes there were tons of missinfos spread, didn’t help that guys like Vesper helped with this.
His Season 3.5 overbuffed reaction was hilarious, since all Capcom did was to correct things they had fucked up previously and added ONE new way to use V-Meter during Combos.
Most people probably just saw the endless list of buffs for VT2, what was even after the chanegs, still one of the worst ones in the game.
But this is how SF Balance goes, cry the loudest to get characters buffed nerfed.
Works that way since Season 1.
And like I said, I refuse to get down on that level.
Cammy’s season 3.5 changes were nothing more than QOL changes that were blown way out of proportion by the pathetic SF community. And if I learned anything in my days as a youth it’s that timing is everything when it comes to people. Remember, when Capcom announced the 3.5 changes, the pathetic SF community had just seen 3 Cammy players in the top 8 at NCR. Verloren, Gamerbee, and NuckleDu. Verloren and Gamerbee would have little success as the season went on and Du only used Cammy in certain match ups, he’s a Guile player through and through. But the damage had already been done, 3 Cammy players in the top 8 at a tournament. And now you have the pathetic SF community reading the patch notes and losing their fragile, tiny, little minds. The rest is history.
Maybe Verloren gets eliminated in the top 16, maybe Gamerbee never drops Necalli, maybe Du feels his Cammy isn’t ready and doesn’t use her at NCR. I guarantee you things turn out very differently with the pathetic SF community. But that’s how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Capcom only nerfed Cammy because of the seemingly endless crying and complaining. That’s it. Ether way, that it for me. I’ve been playing SFV for over 2 years but I can’t accept what they did to Cammy and why they did it.
Vesper pisses me off with his constant crying about Cammy. Like how dare Cammy have an anti air normal… He was ridiculous.
It was over blown, but she was top tier. When you compare her to other characters she had it good, as she had tools essentially to deal with all situations easily compared to the rest of the cast (this isn’t to say some didn’t have it better). Mind you this is how capcom designed her and wanted her to be. She is easy to use with the trade off being an honest character with low life and stun. Anybody could pick her up and play her but to be top with her you had to have great fundamentals, amazing reactions and be 100% on point. If not you got destroyed for every mistake.
She became an issue when top players could easily pick her up to deal with bad match ups with their mains. For this reason they had to “normalize” her to be mid tier at best even in good hands to keep her an easy to play character, but not as enticing to use over your main for a bad matchup. These changes makes her essentially the same character for lower ranked players but not as useful at higher play.
My issues with the changes is they didn’t make them consistent with other characters that had the same stuff or even better. For a long time I believe Cammy made it through unschathed because Akuma had more of everything compared to Cammy, but when Cammy started hitting every stream setup at majors and Akuma was only seen when Tokido was around Capcom took notice and figured it was somethign more. Granted everyone who played Cammy probably could have picked up Akuma too, but it’s more work and that is really why Cammy got the nerf bat.
I wouldn’t worry too much. Considering the direction they are going and how Juri was literally untouched I expect a lot of the top tiers will lose their easy pressure tools as well. If not I fully expect we get some stuff back otherwise just play someone else.
Definitely overblown when people are saying she was better than Menat, Guile, Akuma, and Ibuki. Hell I would even throw Karin in there over her. I just can’t understand the mentality of some of these pro players who pick up a character that has such obviously bad matchups that they will constantly run into during the tournament. How many times can you pick Cammy and not expect to be Abigailed?
I have to disagree though with Cammy needing nerfs to be normalized. During the prior seasons, the top tiers had BS like anti air jabs, throw loops, and good safe crush counter buttons. Especially during season 2, everyone essentially played like better versions of Cammy. When those things were changed, they effectively normalized everyone to Cammy’s level. If anything, they didn’t compensate with better tools when removing the gimmicks to make them better well rounded characters and that’s where the issues lied.
Now season 4 comes along, they have improved everyone’s tools but now Cammy has gotten neutered to near uselessness when she didn’t need to be. Her bad matchups are still bad. Her even matchups are now worse, and her good matchups are even.
I know you said you won’t sink low enough to complain everywhere but I will. I have a feeling these changes are going to be reverted when 4.5 drops, but I’ll make sure my voice is heard just in case.
I didn’t say she needed nerfs. I said capcom thought she needed nerfs to be normalized to distract pro players from using her as as side piece to deal with their bad match ups which defeats the purpose of bad match ups. Pro players weren’t complaining about her. Only people who couldn’t spend 5 minutes labbing how to deal with certain pressure strings or dive kick cried like babies. The majority of pros all said she doesn’t need any nerfs minus the DP stun nerf which I still disagree with as she deserves it compared to the other shotos. She isn’t rocking a fireball, safe enders, an overhead, huge damage or 1000/1000 life and stun. The only thing Cammy has over the other shotos is a divekick so I definitely think she should have kept the stun damage. The double stun nerf to forward throw was enough as it was as it still took 4 to 5 combos to stun. Now the majority of time they are already KO’d before I get a stun as it’s so low meanwhile I get stunned if I get knocked down and risk an EX DP on wake up once. That’s not balanced to me.
Cammy is just more linear now and has very little benefit to getting corner anymore. Too much so to be effective at the top and that’s why all of the mains have jumped ship. Her only reliable string to pressure from now is st lk, cr lp, st lp. This makes here very predictable and limited. If she deviates from this she can get more but it’s a risk every time as 3 frames beat it. Before she could play rock paper scissors fairly easily, but now each attempt is a huge risk that could mean stun or KO in 1 or 2 mistakes. Before you could force someone to respect your pressure so you could setup certain things. Now they can just take a guess with a counter hit jab or backdash to contest 99% of her pressure while she has to respect all of theirs being -6 on v -reversal or risking stun KO if she tries to contest with an EX DP. It’s definitely not a fair trade off, but hey all the haters are happy so Capcom’s done a good job in their eyes. There’s far less of us Cammy mains then there are of the rest of the cast that complained incessantly about divekicks even after you show them how to punish them.
Characters have to have certain things in this game to win tournaments. Either crazy pressure like Rashid, ridiculous comeback potential like Urien, crazy mix ups like Ibuki, or amazing zoning like Menat or Guile. If all you have is good neutral/oki, mediocre damage, and sub par stun you aren’t going to be winning tourneys. She’s too honest to do that especially now with where she is.