As I said in the post you responded to, ST Honda’s trash normals (arguably the worst in the game) are not what beats those characters. Stored Ochio is the problem.
Huh? My post was in response to numerous posts lobbying for Honda nerfs!
Quoted for very relevant truth. We already have a wishlist thread, let’s keep the wishlist stuff (that will probably never happen anyway) in there. That way, people who are more interested in talking about the actual game of HD Remix can easily ignore it.
Its not the ochio, its hands, and torpedo and his standing sweep. ochio is icing on the cake in those matchups if they step into its range.
Its extremely hard to pressure honda without a fireball, improving his footsies, is just gonna make it harder on those without fireballs, since it would make him better at fighting them with normals.
If you improve his normals you have to do something to balance it out.
I’m not for nerfing the hell out of him, but I would rather see hawk, fei, cammy get looked at a little more.
Why is it that the 3 of the 4 newest characters (that we care about), feel incomplete?
They are incomplete for exactly that reason. The other characters had about a 3 year head start.
- Pete
Jab torpedo is no worse than any reversal with invulnerability frames.
Hands took a pretty nasty hit in HD Remix already, but I’d happily give up launchable hands for steerable hands. That’d decrease his mid-range pressure.
Stored Ochio is what really puts ST Honda over the edge against certain characters because it prevents them from getting close enough to apply meaningful pressure. Then there’s the cheap Ochio setups like jumping short into Ochio, one-hit slaps into Ochio, etc. I feel that the HD Remix version of Ochio is actually better than the ST version because it allows Honda to keep someone in the corner. Getting rid of the trap was good, but there wasn’t enough thought put into the implications of an instant, non-whiffable command grab that allows Honda to maintain his position.
Remember, these normals were in previous versions of SF2 and it wasn’t a problem in those games. Also take into consideration that Honda wouldn’t be the only character receiving buffs in this theoretical balance patch.
I agree with whoever said that throwing a few patches at HD Remix would increase interest in the game. I think it would be interesting if Capcom came out with an ‘Anniversary Remix’ patch for HD Remix that added remixed ‘old’ characters with elements from the pre-ST games. This is probably where my theoretical Honda would best fit. Take away his super, launchable slaps and Ochio, give him his old pokes and you’ve got ‘Old Honda’! I mean, the artwork is already done. All they’d need to do is cobble it together, turn it into paid DLC and rake in the chips.
Yeah it is, actually. Jab Torpedo IS worse. MUCH worse. It is safe on Block and requires no reaction time to perform it, as it requires no motion. And it travels straight, so even if you bait it sorta close, it goes forward, you block it, and he’s still safe.
The ONLY weakness of the move is that it requires charge time (edit) and that it starts up a bit slower than most Reversals, so it’s easier to Safe Jump than the other wake-up moves.
This actually isn’t true. The reason why removing Stored Ochio is something I think most players can agree to is because, in the end, it won’t affect MUCH. Yeah, it’s a huge annoyance to characters trying to get in on him, but even if you took the Stored Ochio away, most characters STILL wouldn’t be able to get close enough to even attempt a Throw on Honda anyhow.
The reason why Stored Ochio should be removed is because it’s a Special Move. Special Moves require motions or charge time. There’s no reason why Honda is the only character that gets to have a special move that can have its motion stored, especially a Throw which has no whiff animation. So removing it removes the accidental Ochio benefits Honda gets, the safe Negative Edge Ochios while Blocking, and the super instant reaction Ochios at one button press.
The Stored Ochio is exactly like Coth stated: it’s icing on the cake.
I’ll take the new Honda Ochio path over the original one ANY day of the week. The corner trap was just plain wrong. It gave him easy wins against ANY character he got there. If somehow it only worked on Fireball characters, I’d be okay with leaving the trap in. But fact is, it works well on characters like Bison and such as well.
I always postulated that Honda’s Ochio Throw should have remained the same as it was in ST, but instead he automatically “turns around” and throws you OVER his head behind him. Not only would it look like it makes MUCH more sense than even the original Ochio Throw, he would still even be able to repeat it twice if he started in the corner. And interestingly enough, if he used Ochio as a defense when he was in the corner, it would essentially take him OUT of it, which I think would be fair for balance.
- James
[media=youtube]MGoFiNteQeU&#t=1m22s[/media]
Honda isn’t the only character with a solid special that’s safe on block, though. Sure, it doubles as a powerful reversal, but it has such a slow travel time that I never considered it to be much of an issue. It’s not like it’s a difficult move to react to once the invulnerability wears off.
As I said in a previous post, I’m fine with the COMPLETE removal of Ochio (as well as a toning down of slaps) - not just stored - in exchange for his old normals. To nerf Ochio without compensation, however, would be a disaster since ST Honda is based around that move. Even if it’s never used in a match, just the mere threat of it changes the way your opponent plays.
The question is, why, after 4 games, were Honda’s normals suddenly considered too powerful? They were the backbone of his play style until they were gutted in ST. He went from being the master of trip with solid fundamentals to a ghost of a character that relies on a cheap bug that somehow made it through testing. We’ve learned how to work around his limitations, but he really does feel like a shadow of his former self in ST.
Notice DJ isn’t counted in there.
WTF does buffing/nerfing Honda have to do with the local HDR scene? :looney:
See you guys tomorrow at Denjin! :lovin:
PS: Are you goin’ James? Sounds like tons of people are comin’. You should go :wgrin:
Hey Johnny, msg me on XBL for some remix… I will get smoked cus I haven’t been playing much the past year or so, but I friggin’ hate SFIV nowadays and want to get decent again.
Hm… Are you talking to jchensor or me?
I wish I could go. I’m broke right now.
Well, I meant jchensor cause he lives like 4 miles away. But it’d be cool if you could come down sometime too! :tup:
I’m so jealous of you Cali people. Active scenes and shit.
Check the previous couple pages. Someone brought up the idea of balance patches increasing interest in HD Remix, which is very relevant to the thread. Then it devolved into a Honda pile-on even though he is a worse character in ST than he was in CE, HF and SSF2.
Topics ebb and flow in a long thread - especially on a heavily moderated forum like this with a limited amount of threads. That’s the beauty of conversation. It doesn’t always follow a linear path.
It’s not an issue if you have a Fireball. 
But if your whole goal is to stay in Honda’s face, like a Fei Long or Cammy or Gief, it’s a HUGE issue.
As for the slowness of the move, it’s really funny. I think I’m one of the only people who uses Honda’s Fierce Headbutt as Reversal more than the Jab one and the speed is the reason why. It’s invincible up to the first frame it hits, so it trades at worst. Plus, if you trade with a Jump-in Attack, you actually lose your recovery, so it’s easier to go for a cross-up Ochio throw setup. And it’s WAY harder to Safe Jump. Does anyone else do this?
I hate all of Honda’s new Normal Moves. They need to give him back his entire set of Normals from Super, for better or for worse (the only part that gets worse, IMO, is that he loses Roundhouse Cross-up). I never understood why they changed it in ST.
The problem is that Hnoda KINDA makes up for it with the new Hand Slaps. It became his way to “attack” so to speak, which is why I think they were okay with nerfing his Normals. The ST Hand Slap is about 10000 times better than the original Hand Slap, because he can move forward, do chip damage, and attack all while staying charged! So if we move Honda back to the Normals he had before, you’d have to nerf the Hand Slaps a little more. But doing that may hurt him really badly in HDR.
Honda is a tricky f*cker to balance, man. There’s gotta be some crazy delicate balance between defense and offense you can give to this character and still make him competitive yet not dominating. The fact that he’s both at the same time is really just awful, IMO.
Obviously, I didn’t make it. Was actually out in the Inland Empire that day, visiting family. 
- James
I do. :tup:
Well, that is when SF4 isn’t totally f’ing up my timing.
megamanpb is a beast. :bgrin:
Which do you play more?
SF4. I found out this weekend that was a bad call if I want to be worth a shit in SF2. :bluu: