Brother, You're Needed - Ultimate Thor Team Building Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
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And if they do? As in, I’m not talking about playing against bad players. I’m talking about the smart ones. They can either make it safe by calling it at safe times, or attacking you simultaneously. Mighty spark isn’t doing crap against incoming normals.

On the ground, Thor is ass. grounded sparks can be ducked for free. hence the threat of Vajra has won by limiting Thor (without it even being used).

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Refer back to my original point about good players. If they are smart enough to cover their assist, they aren’t going to fall for ‘oh he’s flying, lets press A2’. Besides, how is thor going to do any damage to anyone at super jump height? By using something like Mighty strike. The same attack wrecked by a well timed Vajra assist. You are relegated to coming down with jumping H, giving you the worlds most predictable trajectory.

As per my points above, the fact that Thor is good at killing Strider is completely negated by how much it changes his game plan, making him severely restricted.

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Also I would say most strider teams are strider + teleport which makes lots of ground sparks useless. Like Vergil or Dante may not be able to punish it but they threaten so you can’t just do it ad nauseum . Also still agree with borjan the way it makes Thor change his gameplan is enough to make it good against him.

I’ll try some medium mighty spark on reaction to nuetral call against the various strider users around here more and see how it fairs.

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It will work. Once.

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My point isnt that MS renders vajra useless, its that eventhough it will give you a hard time thor is still better equipped than most characters for dealing with that assist. If the other player figures this out and stops calling it out when its unsafe then that just means that you’re given more freedom to move again. There are some situations where its gonna be hard to punish especially against teleporters but thats something that applies to pretty much every character in the game not just thor, its no different than beam + teleport, just one of those things that you’re gonna have to avoid/block instead of trying to punish it. Although i would argue that vergil’s teleport probably wont work here, you can just spam mighty spark and if you either see strider get hit or vergil teleport immediately do HCF + (2ATK), in case vergil teleports in front/above you he should get hit (need to test this out to see if spark can beat out helm breaker), if he teleports behind you then you get mighty punish. You’re gonna need another meter to be able to capitalize on it but he wont be able to punish you atleast.

145

I’m trying to explain why your ideas will not work when both players have a good knowledge of the matchup. You mention this has nothing to do with good/bad players, then say that people thing that vajra is an assist that doesn’t require cover. well it does, as we have a very clear case here of how it can be beaten. Hence my point stands, anyone with a brain will know you can’t call vajra against Thor recklessly due to MS. Only bad players will.

Again, these are bad players. I’m sorry but they are. A good player will know that its safe to call vajra against certain characters at SJ height, and also that against certain characters (i.e. Thor) this doesn’t work. Bad players go on autopilot. It seems your examples are all cases where you are artificially creating really bad situations for the opponent to have called the assist, when in reality they shouldn’t be doing this. (eg. Varja being a tracking assist, or the fact that certain characters find it difficult to keep strider safe again is only a relevant factor against bad players. Good players know the limitations of their characters, and will not be calling strider where they cannot keep him safe.)

a lot of characters can’t do anything about Vajra apart from block. Thor ends up in the group that gets properly fucked by it however despite the fact he can punish bad calls, because the threat of it being used wrecks his game plan so badly.

I feel I will only be repeating myself from here on… so if anyone can summarise this better feel free.

146

yes assuming that both players know about it then you can consider them a bad player for calling vajra in that situation, i meant in cases where the other player doesnt know about it and honestly i dont think that there are many players who know about it considering how rarely thor is used.

Although i suppose that doesnt rly matter in this discussion so its fair to assume both players know about it, but like i said if the other player catches on and uses it carefully then at the very least thor will get more freedom in his movement because the other player will be hesitant when calling vajra.

I get what you are trying to say, you dont think MS is a very effective/consistent punish for vajra, i dont completely agree but i understand your reasoning. What i dont understand is how Thor suffers more against vajra compared to the average mvc3 character. Vajra is the kind of assist that screws up pretty much anything as long as the other character isnt too close. Whatever your character’s game plan is vajra is good at countering it as long as the point character supports it correctly, if you’re an air-based character it will hit you out of the air, if you’re a rushdown character it will make it a nightmare to approach through zoning, if you’re a zoning character it will act as an anti-zoning assist. So in the end it comes down to what tools your character has that are good for countering/avoiding vajra.

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lol no, Vajra is not safe at all against Thor if there is no support from the point character.

Mighty spark L/M/H brings down Vajra
s.Mighty Strike H brings down vajra
strider player calls vajra, Thor Dash backward, vajra hits, thor blocks, XFC, s.S, superjump combo, Mighty Tornado, Strider is dead.

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Vajra messes up a lot of people’s game plans, that’s true, but as far as Thor is concerned, it almost destroys his entirely. Thor’s big thing is about using the air to move around in. All of his normals and specials when grounded are slow, unsafe, and punishable even in the most ideal situations.

With Vajra completely controlling the air space, you’re not only limiting Thor’s approaches, you’re cutting them off completely, so Thor is forced to play whatever game the opponent has, which will in all likelihood be the worst game for Thor to play.

As a heavy, zoning him out is a huge thing against him, but without Vajra, he has the tools to make it through that. As a heavy without armor or any other thing that makes him crazy, he doesn’t really have anything that’ll force the opponent to be careful in his/her approaches. Thor’s supposed to be the heavy that’s mobile. Hulk has armor, Haggar has the pipe, Nemesis has screen control, Sentinel has armor and mobility, and Tron, well she really doesn’t have anything that makes her stand out from the heavies, and it’s probably because of that reason that she’s considered widely as being among the worst characters in the game.

Taking away’s Thor’s tools that allow for his mobility puts him in the same position as Tron essentially. With Vajra, those tools are cut off because if he were to use them, he’d end up turning a bad situation into a worse one because Vajra makes it not only something that stuffs him, but forces him to the ground for an easy OTG combo.

Vajra being used as an anti air assist in essence makes it an anti Thor assist, and that’s why, at least I think, Vajra is that much more detrimental to Thor. It’s not about messing up his preferred method of fighting. It’s about taking away his only method of fighting and substituting it for whatever the opponent wants, be it zoning, rushdown mix ups, or anything else they feel like doing.

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@ Legendary DJ
I might try Dorm as a sub for Skrull on my Thor, Skrull, RR team. Lock down isn’t a problem it’s getting a hit confirm with his slow normals. Skrull is my otg which has great range and does a wall bounce that even if I open with a pendulum swing from RR it’s still enough to get the opponent off the ground with a Mighty Strike H. Dorms purification as a lockdown and long range OTG might be a good switch up as long as I don’t sacrifice too much speed with him.

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I agree and I don’t. Thor does have armor on his Mighty Strikes and you can use that to not only break through zoning games but also with Mighty Strike M you can air dash after or flight cancel to maybe throw in a high/low mixup. Also he’s not just mobile he is the only character in the game with a air command grab the H version of which is 1 frame. The other two versions have a huge hit box making it possible to grab opponents that are near Thor’s feet. He can also zone with a little help from a get off me assist and his 8 way dash and flight give him a skill set no other heavy has. All he needs is the pipe to be unstoppable. So saying that all his tools would be gone with the Vajra assist is saying a bit much but it does nerf his damage potential and that’s what Thor is about, dat damage. To me, there is no reason Thor should do anything less than 800k in damage per combo plain and simple. But with Vajra controlling air space it does allow him to close the distance a bit so it really depends on your third team member what it is you are going for.

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All of the zoning and pressure that he has is an extension of his mobility. The air dashing, the mighty strikes, getting close enough to do his air command grab (Haggar also has an air command grab by the way. Not so sure on the frame data, but I’d assume it’s just like Thor’s), being in the air in general, etc. And Vajra single-handedly renders all of that useless. If you’re in the air, you get hit by Vajra and you’re on the ground. Air dash gets beat by Vajra, Mighty Strike gets beat by Vajra, flight gets beat by Vajra, jumping gets beat by Vajra. If it wasn’t for Mighty Spark being an anti-air move, then Thor would literally have no answer to getting in or getting out.

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But if you can time the Vajra or condition your opponent to do what you want you can use the Vajra’s hard knockdown to get in a charged Mighty Smash H and start a combo from there. So it doesn’t completely shut him down plus even if the Mighty Smash H gets blocked it is plus on block when charged so you could possibly set up a tick throw situation. Hmmm, I may have to try that out.

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I think we’re not on the same page here. I was talking about how detrimental it would be to Thor if his opponent was running Vajra assist. More of a matchup discussion, but it somehow migrated to this thread.

But while we’re at it, this being the team building thread and all, let’s talk about it. Thor could definitely run a team with Vajra on it, and get some good mileage out of it. Thor likes to be in the air, and Vajra essentially makes it so he can do that pretty freely. And the fact that Vajra is tracking, allows him to cut the gap on the opponent’s zoning attempts. Sort of an anywhere lockdown assist for a brief second. And like you said, if they’re in the air and get clipped by it, a full charged :h: Mighty Smash will OTG them, and allow him to launch into an air combo. It’s definitely worth looking into if you’re interested.

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Vajra is definitely a problem for Thor, as i said earlier, the best way to deal with Vajra is dash backward on reaction, XFC, s.S, superjump combo, Mighty Tornado on Strider. Thor will lose his XF, but the other player lose Vajra, his team strategy and anchor Strider.

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This discussion is more about fighting against the Vajra assist rather than using it on your own team.

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whats the point of the back dash here?

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My bad fellas I came to the team building thread and just read the posts wrong. I sorta started to figure it out a bit after my last message but it was already there so meh. @LegendaryDJ I tried the Vajra assist for a couple of hours and it scaled back my damage too much. I can see its potential uses but it just felt like too much work. Also the tick throw set-up only works in the corner because the push back is too great anywhere else on the screen.

But pertaining to the actual discussion why is the Vajra assist so hard for Thor to deal with? Why is blocking it then going for a Mighty Hurricane H not the first option?

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Come on man, think a little. You can’t command grab an assist.

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You’re making the same mistake I made. In my older post I am talking about using Vajra as an assist. Everyone else in the forum was talking about trying to counter it. And when I’m talking about tick throw set-ups I was talking about using as an assist not fighting it.

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I honestly do not know what to say.