The same could almost apply to Thor. Does good with momentum in his favor, not great for start of round stuff. With proper DHCs and cross over counter options, he can get some momentum. Even throw in some TACs to make the point character kill. Still kinda boils down to him needing a good bit of help to get the opponent to respect him.
I dont agree about Thor being bad for opening up a fight…
Admittedly, it’s not as bad as Strange, but he still has poor tools for dealing with it. Your best bet is to either hope for a command grab, or get back so the other guy’s normals, which are undoubtedly faster in every way possible and have a high chance of turning into an OS throw, don’t tag you, because anything else just simply gets beat out. Thor’s high health is probably his best asset for start of round.
Thor does fine on opening, just don’t be an idiot about it. People with their characters are quite predicable off of character body language at the start.
No, he doesn’t do that well. The only thing Thor does well at the start is not die on the first touch due to his health. Other than that, all you really have is H MH with a Throw OS and unless your opponent is an idiot and grinds Thor’s face, it won’t work that well. The only reason you should put Thor on point is if your second character is even worse at the start of the round than he is. There are a decent amount of characters that are worse though, even the upper tiers (Dorm is not fond of Start of the Match). He’s not absolutely terrible, but he’s still not really good at it other than being able to take a hit.
Yeah, Thor is below average at the start. What are you guys seeing that says otherwise? That your opponent is ‘predictable’ just means you aren’t playing good enough people imo. In such a sterile situation, everyone should be trying to pull off some tricky shit to land that first hit, not just walk up and mash throw.
To be honest, you’d think that them walking up to you is a good thing, but Thor is put in a really bad guessing game. I can’t walk away fast enough, my normals WILL lose. Do I just up back? Do I block low? Mash assist, knowing I will not be able to cover them nearly as well as other characters can? Do I command grab on the ground or TK it? Whatever you choose, I feel you are really gambling with a risk reward situation that is not in your favour at all.
I put him first because I don’t want Dorm out there (and agree with high health I should survive if I do get hit, and if they kill me at least dorm is coming in with a few more bars…), and my team set up wants Felicia at the back… but if I’m just getting wrecked I will put her there and let her faster normals deal with it.
Dont know why you guys think Thor has a bad opening.
- Hulk will mash forward H trying to grab. Thor tech twice then command grab H and he won the opening. Hulk j.whatever gets punished by s.H into Mighty Smash M or spark L for making it safe
- Wolverine can jump and go for an airgrab, then divekick. Thor jump, tech, then chicken block, then command grab. A bad s.L gets punished by j.H
- Nemmy will mash back + H looking for a grab or an armored hit. Thor can jump, j.L, j.M, j.S, etc and won the opening
- Zero is the harder imo cause the startup of his s.forward H can beat Thor j.H, so Thor has to watch out his button presses
- Magneto. Chicken block s.H, he cannot make it safe with any method, or tech in the air, then neutral game, etc
- against every character, jump, then forward + H, works both defensively and offensively. Thor just have to time it well, not too soon or will be air grabbed
- jump upback is better than walking back and i think Thor has one of the fastest jump-upback due to his weight, assuming Thor want to retreat from the start, so stop saying his walk is slow, it doesnt affect the opening
- anything on block: XFC, Mighty Hurricane. Thor won the opening
- the airdash can take Thor out of hard pressure; Thor backward wavedash is godlike
- If he gets hit because bad button press (not Thor fault), 1250 health
- predictable people at jumping gets punished by TK Mighty Hurricanes
Thor punishes = TOD. You guys should get better with Thor in the opening instead of talking bad about his options. He is a point character. Playing him in the second position is like playing Magneto, Zero or Viper in the second position. People who say Thor is bad at the opening probably should level up the grab game.
Strange is not a good point character because:
- he cannot get out of real pressure, so if he doesnt win the opening he will lose to pressure. In other words bad mobility up close.
- big hurtbox
- low health
- unreliable blockstrings without assist. its not a great idea calling assist at the start of the fight if the priority is not super high
- his assist, DHCs and options with momentum and space are very good, so he better stay back in the team until his time to shine comes, much like Dormammu and Morrigan
- Hulk doesn’t have to grind you trying to grab. All he actually has to do is stay out of your H MH range and Hulk can do whatever the hell he feels like since his st.H has tremendous range. Doing st.H out of that range into Gamma Charge if blocked backed up by Drones, Thor can do nothing but block and hope. If hit, well you know the rest.
- What Wolvies are you playing where those are his only two options? Yeah he has those, and he also has the fun things like B-Slash mixups backed up by Tatsu, Drones, Jam Session or whatever else has you.
- Who cares about Nemesis start of the round?
- Zero doesn’t really “win” SoM, he just doesn’t have to play it at all against Thor. He backs up, second the round starts, throw Buster call assist, and now good luck chasing his ass down.
- Again, WHY is Magneto trying to rush you down? He doesn’t need to against Thor. He can back away, and as long as he has meter, let alone assist help, he owns Thor free from far out.
- Every character that doesn’t have a legit SoM option or mixup.
- It’s funny how you treat a retreat as an option for Thor and then not have it as an option for anyone else he’d be facing.
- One, you burned XF so the opposing point BETTER have been the problem, and two, it’s not full proof depending on range. If you use anything but H MH, you can be beat out by a snapback, and if you use H MH, the opponent has to be grinding you which isn’t always the case. Not to mention what happens if the opponent has things like Missiles or Drones out which will catch Thor (or at least force a block) after MH finishes. It’s a tactic that works, but one that should not be used often.
- Again, why is the option there for Thor and not other characters?
- Already stated a ton of times, one of the few things he does well is take a hit. Of course that doesn’t mean much in the face of snapbacks and XF, but at least it’s something.
- Who gives a shit about predictable jumps? Almost any character can win SoM against completely predictable and meh approach and retreat.
Half of your reasons involve the opponent not using things like assists (quick ones at that), and the other half doesn’t consider the possibility that the opponent can essentially win the SoM against Thor by not even playing and making his life hell by forcing a chase.
His SoM skill is only as good as the opponent is oblivious to Thor. Someone who knows the matchup will likely win the SoM more often than not. Thor’s job is he’s forced to be point is to absorb hits and then get to a point where he can get the second character in safely. On point, he doesn’t really use all of his advantages, he’s just out there as a mobile meat shield. Putting him second isn’t a travesty like you seem to think, it’s pretty much smart reasoning in most teams. Mighty Punish is a quick way to DHC in if necessary, his TAC’s are damaging, his assists are versatile and helpful, and Thor himself works best when maintaining momentum quickly turning an advantage into an outright massacre.
- Tech/Command grab is the only option Thor has on the ground. You guess wrong and Hulk decides to jump, that st. H you mentioned has 13 frames of start up and a very mediocre hitbox. It will get stuffed more times than none unless you time it to the T, and Hulk decides to chillax and throw out H like he does anyway, your H will get beat out big time.
- Smart Wolverine’s will typically have a good assist (Tatsu, Shopping Cart, whatever) backing them up making whatever they do safe (jS, Dive Kick, Beserker Slash, sL, whatever), and since Wolverine is faster and has better normals and is already in his ideal position, he can immediately start his pressure with Thor having little else to do but block.
- Having played OWA’s Nemesis more than a few times, I can safely say that a good Nemesis will not be as predictable as that. All he has to do is put some space in between and beat Thor out of everything with his Deadly Reach.
- Thor, like pretty much every other character in the game, has to watch out from pretty much everything Zero does.
- Magneto’s sH has a lot of range and a lot of push back. So he’s relatively safe (when facing Thor at least) if it gets blocked. And if he decides to do jH, then as soon as he and Thor touch the ground, it’s essentially just a matter of, “okay, I’m alive, what’s he gonna do now?” Teching the grab is an option, but again that’s really just making due and not outright winning. Magneto’s neutral game is far better than Thor’s, so he can apply a great deal of pressure.
- One of the things I’ve never really gotten was the hype that Thor’s jH gets. The actual hit box on the move is tiny while Thor’s hurt box is huge, and against any character with a shred of mobility, they can easily get around it by dashing under Thor and punishing, which good players can easily pick out and spot.
- That’s true, and in actuality is really Thor’s best option against the majority of the cast because he simply can not compete with most point characters up close.
- Having to burn your X factor just to solidly win start of round indicates to me that said character doesn’t have good start of round options.
- That air dash loses to any character with a sword. It also loses to Felicia’s Delta Kick, which is something I need personally need to remember because I always forget, and yes Thor’s back wavedash is good.
- Those bad button presses come from having bad buttons. If you try to grab or tech a grab on the ground against characters with better OS H’s, you’re going to lose. From there, it’s just a matter of hoping you spot the inevitable reset attempt and get out of it because in spire of Thor having the highest health in the game, he still dies in two combos just like everyone else does.
- Predictable people in general should get punished every time, regardless of what character you’re using. Does it happen all the time? No, but either way, that’s a matter of the player playing against the other player, not Thor having good options.
Magneto, Zero, and Viper are all excellent point characters with excellent start of round options, all miles ahead of anything Thor has. Thor really doesn’t have much to get better with. All you really said Thor should do is tech grabs and try and command grab, and what I’m trying to say is Thor doesn’t have a good H to tech grabs with, and command grabs are basically you hoping for the best. Both of which are extremely punishable by most characters that are played on point.
Strange is not a good point character. That much I agree with. I also agree that Thor is a better point character than Strange.
I’m dissapointed on you guys, Thor is good at starting a fight. Not the best but he is good. I’ll answer a few points…
- DJ dont know why you think Viper is better than Thor at opening a fight. I play DrewGrimey from time to time and he respect my Thor in the opening. I have played other good vipers, they ALL respect my Thor. The best colombian viper respect my Thor in the opening.
- s.H can be cancelled into spark L making it safe, so if you whiff its not the end for Thor, and its not like you cannot back enough to get away of Hulk hitbox range. If Hulk doesnt destroy Thor in the opening, he already lost
- Saitsu i dont use “assists” when talking about individual matchups, Thor has assists too
- j.H is good because its active until Thor lands and can be cancelled into Thor command grab
- no matter what you do, Wolvie will never ever be safe against XFC, Mighty hurricane. Try doing it more oftenly. Wolvie has to die at once, he cannot get momentum. His teams are mostly centered around him so if you kill Wolvie the chance of the other player to win are slim, specially considering Thor mixups chances on incoming characters (talking more especifically about the flying, j.S + assist, land, ground dash, etc guard break mixup)
- with all respect, OWA nemesis is not good. Saitsu you underestimate Nemmy opening options, he is like Hulk basically but with more options. Try playing Stitchoku on xbox live then come back and comentate on actual experience with Nemesis. Even my nemesis is better
- Magneto s.H is not safe if you chicken block. The worst that can happen to Thor is going to neutral, if my Thor goes to neutral i consider it good after an opening
- Maybe its a matter of perspective. If my Thor doesnt get rushed down at once, and with rushed down i mean destroyed (implying you have to walk toward him and attack like a madman, wolvie/hulk style), then my Thor will probably win the fight if the other character is pure rushdown, Thor + bolts of balthakk + cold star is that good
- If Zero doesnt rush down thor from the opening, he has nothing solved in the neutral, Thor can compete with his BS. I know by experience.
- The only characters i really respect are Zero (hitboxes size + safe in the opening), Hawkeye (because if Thor doesnt win at once, he will have a favorable neutral game over Thor regardless of assists), Magneto (he is good in the neutral), Dante, Morrigan + Strider and Nemesis, Vergil and Wesker to a lesser extent. Wolvie is good but i dont overrate him. Saying that Wolvie can mixup your character in the opening talks more about your blocking skills than about Thor actual tools to counter it. Characters like Vergil and Magneto wish they had XFC, command grab to kill Wolvie. Justin Wong destroyed everybody at SBO with point wolverine, they all got mixup’d (Vergils, Spencers, etc) dont blame that on those characters but on their players skills
- XFC, 1 frame command grab is not “not having an option”, its more like having the most godlike option to kill a rushdown character. Wesker, Thor and i think Haggar are the only characters with this option to counter rushdown. Again, Vergil wish he had XFC > command grab to kill wolverine
- Because Viper IS better than Thor at opening a fight, easily. If Drew’s respecting your Thor at SoM, he needs to get punched. She has no reason to respect Thor at all due to EX Seismo at SoM, and if anything, respecting Thor is the worst possible thing Viper could do in that situation because once the match gets going past SoM, Thor pretty much can screw Viper over thanks to Mighty Strike pretty much ignoring EX Seismo now (too slow at SoM) and Spark being annoying.
- Funny you mention that problem for Hulk against Thor when Thor has that EXACT same problem against a good amount of the cast.
- When talking about SoM you HAVE to talk about assists. That’s mandatory. They’re crucial. And yeah, Thor has them too, but funny thing, most of the assists Thor likes are SLOW, Cold Star, Bolts, Missiles, all slow. It’s a good thing for his game, having those slow lockdown assists means he can do fun shit against the opponent, however in a SoM scenario, they are not that helpful in the least. Against a decent amount of the cast, calling them in that scenario is just asking to get HB’d. Compare to most quick beam assists, Tatsu, Shopping Cart, Jam Session, aka most of the things you will see, Thor will not have a ton of help outside of maybe Missiles or Cold Star bailing him out with a stray hit.
- Uh…whoo? It’s not terrible mind you, but it’s a bit slow for a late usage, and as you’ve said already, use it early is just begging to get air grabbed. Don’t overstate its usefulness.
- Alright, fair enough, but a Wolvie with Drones is also a different matter. Won’t see it often, so I’ll let it go.
- Alright, I’ll look up more on Nemesis’ options, but I’m not going to use Xbox Live as the medium, that’s just moronic. I’ll just read up on it myself.
- If Thor is forced into neutral against Magneto you lost, period. You’re not getting to a competent one short of them being on a Phoenix team (thus losing access to Magnetic Shockwave). That’s not a victory in ANY sense.
- Madman rushdown is not the only style, and for the most part is not the most effective either.
- Zero doesn’t need to do so. Here’s the thing about Zero everyone forgets. He has no need to actually have to go to you. He can sit back, run around the screen and wait for SOMETHING to hit, whether it’s Lightning, Buster or one of his assists. Yeah, Thor can compete somewhat, but smart Zeros won’t even have to be close to Thor until something hits. And when something does hit, you’re losing a lot of life if not absolute death (depends on team, how many stray hits happened before, etc…). If Thor DOES get a hit, Zero’s dead, so he only needs one guess but hitting a Zero like the one I mentioned (I’d say Flocker is a good example) is damn hard. Zero may need two, but he’ll have an easier time actually touching you when he needs to.
- Magneto’s the winningest point character in this game, and is starting to become more and more common. The fact is, you’re gonna have to go through a couple likely to get anywhere. Losing to him at SoM does not help the cause at all. And don’t underrate Wolvie. I made the same mistake already, and I paid for it dearly. The fact is, other than those who have XFC Command Grag (thank god for us I guess), most people will get hurt at SoM against him as he has multiple opportunities to open you up, and he only needs one to kill (especially on his optimized squad Wolvie/Dante/Akuma). He’s essentially the opposite of Jean, he puts it all on the line early, if he doesn’t get the touch, you’re a bit of trouble. I’m one of the people who says you should always look to blocking first, but against Wolvie and ESPECIALLY JWong’s Wolvie that’s much easier said than done.
- It’s a solid option I agree, but the thing is Thor’s problem isn’t against Rushdown characters. He can deal with that pretty well with Spark annoyance, FC Strikes and that XF MH among other things. The problem is characters like Magneto, Zero, Dante and such. They don’t have to rush you down and they don’t have to zone forever and one touch from either themselves or an assist can equal hell. Those characters don’t even have to play the game against Thor at SoM. Thor just spends forever trying to chase them in vain. In the end, characters that have to grind you will likely lose while those who don’t will likely win the matchup. The thing is, there’s more of the latter than the former. If the game was full of Wolverines and Hulks, Thor could dominate SoM, but it’s not the case.
Well, maybe you’re the best Thor in the world and I’ve been playing the opening round all wrong. I’m open to anything, but based on what’s been said, I still don’t see anything that Thor does as being “good” when he starts out against others.
- The fact that she has moves that instantly stop any attempt to get in on her puts her above Thor in my book. Thor has no such options, and his normals are worse.
- It’s not the canceling into a special to make it safe that’s the problem. (Also keep in mind that a large group of the cast can crouch under Spark and punish it anyway, so the safety isn’t guaranteed to begin with.) The problem is the overall speed and range of the move. H starts up slow, doesn’t have that good a hit box, and simply gets beat out by other H’s making it a poor option select for a throw, which is something a lot of point characters have. Hulk being the prime example. Range, huge hit box, (don’t even think about trying to jump around it), armor, gets him the grab, and all with a single button press. That’s what’s good in this game, and a lot of point characters have that, so Thor is already is behind against that.
- It can be cancelled into anything, but still it’s a big target for anyone wanting to do something against it. No need to even jump, practically any normal with a decent hit box will stuff it.
- Kill Wolvie with X-factor? Yeah, it’s worth it. He’s a problem, get rid of it, but that only happens if Thor survives the start of round scenario, which is something Wolvie has up on Thor.
- Dang, well put him on blast. Ha ha. I’d like to see that match. Either way, that doesn’t change what I said. Start of round against Nemesis can easily shut down Thor with Deadly Reaches.
- Yeah, Thor in neutral is a great opening, because that means he survived. But again, just getting by in the first second doesn’t equate to having a good start of round.
- Then I need to really see what you’re doing in your fights because apparently I have a lot to learn if that’s the case. I’m serious. No disrespect, not being condescending, I need to see your Thor in action.
- That’s kinda the point though. If Zero rushes down from the beginning, he has everything solved. That said, if Zero stays back, he has everything solved too, because the dude probably has the best neutral in the game. This is me speaking from experience as well. Honestly, I do my best damage against Zero when Thor is second, because at least I can cross over counter him. I’ve seriously had him snapped in because of that.
- First of all, a mix up is a mix up. The fact that Wolverine can do it and Thor does say something about Thor’s tools.
- X-Factor guard cancels are the most “godlike option to kill a rush down character” for every single character in the game. Thor, Wesker, Haggar, Felecia, Lei Lei, Morrigan (and even the other characters without theirs being 1 frame) having a command grab that they can cancel into is great, but for starters, that’s a one move per game option (again, great option), other characters have that option and more, and the other guy has to literally be right in your face to do it. Characters like Vergil can be rushin’ you down, and you’d still be outta range for the reversal.
Viper has to respect Thor because a solid hit gets her killed, and she doesnt have an infinite suply of bar as for saying EX Seismo is the definite factor in the matchup. Out of the top tiers Viper is the character i respect the less. My respect/XFC and kill list is:
Zero, Morrigan, Dormammu, Magneto, Vergil, Viper, Wesker, Nova, Doom, Spencer
then
Wolvie, Strider, Hawkeye, Skrull, Taskmaster, Phoenix, Amaterasu, Akuma, X-23, Dr.Strange; maybe Firebrand and Storm
but i will XFC and kill the best character of the other player if i think its the smart thing to do…
yeah, Zero, Dante, Hawkeye, Morrigan + Strider… Vergil and Wesker to some extent, they can shift from hard to beat for Thor zoning to rushdown, so they are the hard matchups for Thor imo. Still not unbeatable specially if Thor has bolts of balthakk, cold star or doom asists.
Come on Dj i’m sure im not the best Thor. Reggarding the XFC into command grab tactic, only Wesker, Thor, and i think Felicia can follow up into TOD without assist (is felicia command grab out in one frame?). Its not a tool of every other character, because you cannot XFC or you will get grabbed and because not every character can follow up ground grabs. Command grabs win because they beat regular grabs in priority after of an XFC.
But lets stop the theory fight on matchups and lets play more Thor on point…
EDIT: Oh i missed this. By the way you say it sounds like the matchup is 10-0. Its not. Zero rushdown is just hard to keep track of, but he is not unbeatable. Thor has the tools to control his space and for taking down Zero unlike many other characters. And for my team i can always Mighty Punish into Spell of vishanti into XFC and kill whatever character think is invincible in the air. If Thor plays good he only has to reduce Zero health to 55-60% in the neutral then wait for a chance to DHC and kill.
Thor getting a solid hit on any character in the game will get them killed as long as you have a competent DHC. That doesn’t mean much. And again, I’m only talking about the direct start of round. Viper’s EX Seismo beats any of Thor’s other options other than block which she will have advantage is. Viper shouldn’t be the one running away at the start, Thor should, mostly because he has no reason to take the risk. Once the true neutral starts, Thor can now do well against Viper.
And no, I’m not gonna play Thor on point. Unless I switch to Thor/Dorm/Doom for whatever reason, I have absolutely no desire to do so. My personal belief is that his strength lies in that second slot and that’s where I’m gonna continue to play him. I really don’t care where everyone else does, hell even with my belief on his best spot, his best team has him on point. But I have Viper on my team, so I have no reason to play Thor on point at all.
I do play Thor on point, 95% of my matches will go like that and I still feel even with all my experience I know that at the start of the match I’m at a disadvantaged situation that I have to fight against. serpentauras you list a lot of situations where you give the (correct) option that Thor should do if such attacks were coming your way, but I feel you neglect that you have no way of knowing what to do before hand… So its a guess. And the risk reward is not in Thor’s favour.
But like DJ, I’d honestly like to see if I’m doing something wrong.
Of course it’s not 10-0, and yes, Thor can fight against him. He actually does a lot better with him than other characters do, but make no mistake, the match up is not in Thor’s favor, and a big, big, big part of that comes from what happens at the start of the round.
All of my theory fighting is a result of me playing Thor on point since vanilla. You can hype up his options all you want, but in comparison to the rest of the cast, point characters especially, Thor’s options for starting the round are poor. No character has to respect anything from him if they don’t want to, and if they know about some of his tricks before hand (read: after the first or second time you land it on them) it’ll never happen again. This is why Thor is a mid tier character and why every fight, you’re working ten times as hard as the other guy.
You have to realize that Thor has bad buttons to make sure you don’t get punished. You have to realize starting off with a command grab is a fifty/fifty guess so need to be sure that you’re sure that it’ll land and that you only use it sparingly. You have to realize that assists will always be a factor at the start. All of the options you’ve laid out simply don’t hold up after the first or second time against a good player who knows any little thing about the Thor match up.
how is a Hulk, Thor, Strange team?
or Thor Hulk Strange?
It’ll be alright. Hulk could work with his anti air gamma charge to get pressure off when need be and strange for with his bolts will do well to cover both Thor and Hulk trying to get their offense started. Strange as an anchor character isn’t the best spot for him, but if you focus on keeping the whole team alive and making sure they work together as a unit, it’ll do pretty well. Thor and Hulk have some good DHC synergy in between them too, so you’re good.
that new hotness
Thor, Hulk, and Super Skrull
Thor/Dormammu/Skrull is pretty good too.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv331/MechMaster01/mFiHp.gif