Rahon do you know what happened to the matchup thread 1.0? Was it deleted? Some of the stuff on the first page of the matchup thread 2.0 links to it but the thread has disappeared.
I just checked out what you said…i believe joon may have deleted it…I saved your cammy match-up write up on my computer so I’ll just re-post it as well as whatever else I managed to save.
Ibuki vs Cammy, Cammy vs Ibuki by MingoDynasty
Update 2: 7-28-2010
Pre-notes: I wrote this intending to inform someone who has no idea what this matchup is like. If you already play one character or the other, you can skip stuff you probably already know, like safe jump option selects or hooligan setups. Or you can read my entire wall of text. I don’t care.
Overview
Both characters have a very powerful rushdown game. Arguably Ibuki’s is easier due to vortex, though against a competent opponent Ibuki will definitely have to do more than just braindead vortex. For the most part, it’s going to be whoever gets a knockdown first and rushes down, wins. Sounds general, yeah. But neither character can mindlessly jump at each other for fear of Agemen+Kazegiri or CSpike antiairs. This leaves a standard footsies game until something happens, like a knockdown. Once someone is knocked down, the other player gets to (safe) jump in and start pressuring. That’s where things get interesting. On the other hand, perhaps one or both players refuse to play footsies, and instead rely on their high mobility (Ibuki with good dashes and superjumps, Cammy with a super fast walk speed). It’s up to the players to adapt accordingly.
Far range: (across the screen)
Ibuki
I am not sure if tsujigoe xx kunai will build meter as fast as TKCS spam, but you can try. It’s best to avoid this range because Ibuki has almost zero options here.
Cammy
If Ibuki is not doing a good job of kunai zoning or is solely trying to kunai zone you from near full screen instead of mixing in a footsies game, then feel free to just TKCS spam for meter, preferably until you have at least 1 bar for EX CStrike, or 2 bars for CSpike FADC. The more meter you have, the easier your rushdown game is going to be. If you feel like actually starting the match, then you can walk or dash up to a closer range, but always, always be wary of Ibuki’s jump back kunai.
Mid range: (the poking game)
Note: this is pretty much going to be the default range unless one or both players are rushdown happy or instead decide to play a mobility game.
Ibuki
Preferred pokes here are the usual st.MK and cr.MP. You want to use normals that you can cancel/link stuff. Stuff like cr.MK is useless unless you can get a counterhit since you need a knockdown or something to make stuff happen. Yeah you can use cr.MK just for general poking, but the main goal here is to knock your opponent down. You don’t necessarily need to buffer a tsumuji everytime a poke hits. You can mix stuff up with cancelling into command dashing, or maybe SJC here and there to get in with a kunai. Other uncommon but still useful pokes include f+LK, st.LP, slide, and to some degree, f+HK and f+MK. Each of these pokes are primarily used to stuff Cammy’s pokes should you be expecting it. Only f+LK and st.LP allow any sort of followup however, unless you get a counterhit slide or unless your Hammer kick hit fairly close.
Also, it’s important for Ibuki to add the occasional jump back or neutral jump kunai to her footsies arsenal. The key here is to hopefully catch your opponent maybe being too aggressive in her approach or footsies game and get free 50 dmg. Try not to overdo it or be obvious about it else eventually you’ll push yourself to the corner and get fucked.
Cammy
Preferred pokes here are cr.MK, st.MK, and st.HK. Out of those three pokes, only cr.MK can actually be cancelled into a special (usually SA). After getting hit (or counterhit) with st.MK, she may walk up and take advantage of her +2 frame advantage and try to close the gap and start pressure. It may be tempting to do a quick poke to stop her advance but she can always stop (baiting a poke) and do st.LP buffered with HSA. Other uncommon but still useful pokes include st.LP and far.st.MP. Uncommon because of their small range and priority, but still can be useful due to cancellability.
Something to note: very good Cammys can use SA as a poke when they are spaced 100% correctly. What actually happens is that if you’re hit at the very end of the SA animation, you get pushed back with a little bit of blockstun while Cammy recovers freely, similar to Dictator’s scissors kicks. However, even then it’s used very sparingly as poke since it’s not very easy to space it perfectly, especially against high mobility characters like Ibuki.
Pokes countering other pokes: (thanks Kazuhiro)
Against cr.MK, I found out that f.LK is a pretty good counter poke in this situation. Since the foot Ibuki uses to do f.LK is the one that would normally be hit by Cammy’s cr.MK, it beats it pretty convincingly because it’s airborne and make Cammy’s move whiff. LK or MK Tsumuji is another poke that can be good against her cr.MK for the same reason as f.LK. Though, to use it properly, Ibuki needs to stay out of Cammy’s cr.MK range because of the slow startup of the move and the fact that she advances while doing the move. To be honest, If the opponent is cr.MK happy with her, I would just stay out of her cr.MK range and look for a whiff punish with sweep or cr.MP xx MK Tsumuji [buffered] just because everything you have is either too slow to rival her limb or gets beat.
Against st.MK, Ibuki’s cr.MK and slide works wonders as counter pokes because they both lowers her hitbox to a point where Cammy’s st.MK completely whiffs. Too bad Ibuki’s cr.MK can’t be canceled because in this situation, it would be godlike. cr.RH and cr.MP can be used too, but it doesn’t lower her hitbox as much as the other so it might get beaten.
Against st.RH, take advantage of the recovery frames of that move and punish with sweep accordingly. Everything you have either gets beat or trades and the trade is never ever in your favor. Hover between this move’s range and out and whiff punish with your cr.RH for the knockdown. There are no real counter poke that I know against this move.
Close range: (rushdown; this is where shit happens)
Ibuki
Just like her standard rushdown game. Vortex when you get a knockdown and block string if the kunai is blocked. Be sure to mix in TC7 and command dashes to keep things unpredictable. Predictable Ibuki = CSpiked + FADC. Anytime Cammy has 2 bars, be very careful of reversal CSpike. If she hits you with it, she will most likely follow up with another CSpike to
- rebuild her meter; she gains 140 meter back, or a little over half a bar
- turn around the pressure game into her hands
or she may FADC backdash and U1, for 360 something damage. I’m not 100% sure, but even if you block CSpike xx FADC, it still might still swing into Cammy’s favor because she might be able to do her usual throw/TKCS mixups.
Eventually when you play better Cammys, simple vortexing is not going to do the trick. You will need to learn to mix up your vortex so that sometimes the kunai doesn’t crossup and you land in front of Cammy, punishing her attempt to FA + backdash (she will most likely dash into you). You can also j.LK crossup or just plain go for a safe jump.
On the ground, Ibuki still has a lot of mix up options, probably too many to list here. TC6 xx SJC anything. Even if TC6 is blocked, you can jump/superjump cancel and get a mini vortex going with a kunai. Combo or block string xx command dash and keep the pressure on. (Not a combo) cr.MK , TC7 , st.LK xx st.MK. Etc. etc. Ibuki’s rushdown game relies heavily on the opponent
- Not pushing any buttons
- Not reacting fast enough
Most likely your opponent will not react fast enough to something like blocked TC4 xx hk.CD , TC4. They will probably be mashing during your strings, in which case you’ll first need to train them to stop doing so with frame trap usage.
Other things to note when pressuring Cammy: she has a 3 frame low short. This means throwing her is slightly harder compared to other characters with a 4 frame low short.
Cammy
Here’s how her default mixup game works. If she throws, you obviously need to tech. But if she does TKCS, she’s in the air and unthrowable. Even if you do option select crouch tech, she’s not throwing you, so your low short will come out, and get hit (or counterhit?) by her TKCS. Once something connects, she finishes with her bnb cr.LK , cr.LP , cr.LK xx HSA combo and continues. (other bnbs include cl.st.MP , cr.MP and cr.HP , cr.MK. It all depends on the height of the TKCS done)
Side note about her TKCS pressure: Ibuki’s cr.LK has a strangely fairly tall hitbox. If you’re mashing it fast enough you might even stuff her TKCS. To account for this Cammy will have to do delayed TKCS which should stuff any sort of cr.LK attempt.
Stuffing TKCS pressure: you can use cr.LP or st.LP or reversal raida (depending if she did instant TKCS or slightly delayed or what). But again this is all part of the mixup. cr.LP and st.LP will get beat by her tick throw (common setups: after cr.LK or cr.LP strings, after cl.st.MP, or after cr.HP) and raida will get counterhit by frame traps.
Side note: you may think nj.MK is good here, but against dive kick pressure, it’s probably best to stay on the ground else get CSpiked or just plain comboed when you land. The only way you’re going to hit Cammy is if you mash MK as soon as you jump, as most Cammys will not dive kick high in their jump arc.
Going back to frame traps, some of her best normals to start a frame trap are cl.st.MP (+2 on block), and cr.HP (also +2 on block). For cr.HP, the main benefit is because of the pushback, she’s at the perfect range for a whiffed cr.LK. After a cr.HP she will probably input a cr.LK and buffer HSA. If you thought she’s going for a tick throw and you option select crouch tech, your cr.LK will come out and get stuffed by her cr.LK followed by HSA knockdown. For her cl.st.MP she will follow up with like st.LP x2 and buffer HSA. If she sees any of those standing jabs hit, she’ll cancel into HSA.
Once you’re knockdowned she will likely crossup with j.LK or a CStrike of her choosing. j.LK is about her only decent/good crossup normal. If she uses j.LK, most of the time she’s using it to crossup (block the other way). If she uses CStrike, most of the time she’s using it to stay in front of you and hit you with that (block regularly). Depending on the jump and your wakeup, though, hk.CStrike may be able to cross up in a few situations.
Additionally, after a back throw, she may go for another crossup involving CStrike at the arc or near the arc of her jump over you. Depending on the CStrike used and when she uses it in her jump arc, and when she jumps (sounds similar to Ibuki’s vortex, no?), you’ll have to block one way or the other, if she lands and goes for a bnb. Or she may not go for a bnb. She may go for a throw or just land and TKCS. Whatever case, it lets her continue her mixup.
Extra notes: (take note of this shit)
Cammy’s Hooligan setups
Intro: Despite what many Ibukis in this thread think, good Cammys do not mindlessly spam hooligans. They know how punishable that shit is. And they know how easily they can be countered if they’re predictable. Good Cammys will almost always set themselves up for hooligan mixups to complement their mixup arsenal. In almost every setup, it’s after a knockdown (hint hint).
How the hooligan setup works, is that as soon as you wakeup from a knockdown, there’s 1 frame of you standing up, even if you crouch block. It’s this 1 frame of you standing where Cammy can hooligan and throw you to the ground with her legs. To counter this, you will have to reversal a move that’s immune to throws, like raida or kazegiri. Alternatively, you can mash a crouching normal like jab/short so when you wakeup, you’re instantly crouching and won’t get thrown. But raida/kazegiri is probably better since it actually knocks Cammy down instead of just avoiding her. Lastly you can also take advantage of your backdash invincibility frames to get away, but Cammy will still end up in your face.
These are Cammy’s most common setups:
Setup 1: off a forward throw. Cammy can input a mp.Hooligan and catch you on your untechable wakeup.
Setup 2: after a hit CSpike. Cammy can input a hp.Hooligan and catch you on your techable knockdown, if you tech. You can also opt to stay on the ground but you probably won’t react fast enough, or you’ll just tech out of habit.
Setup 3: after certain block strings (eg: st.LP x3). Cammy can input a mp.Hooligan and catch you walking back or dashing back to get away from her pressure. Even if you crouch under it, she recovers deceptively quick and will still be in your face.
Useless moves: (you should almost never use these moves)
Ibuki
lk/mk.Hien: punishable with reversal CSpike, whether you throw a kunai or not. Only use this move if you’re going to use your super, unless you wanna get hit with reversal CSpike.
EX kazegiri: Cammy can dash under and SEVERELY punish you for throwing this out. Worst case scenario she does a big combo like TKCS , cr.HP , cr.MK xx HSA for 340? dmg (more than 1/3 your health!!). While EX kazegiri is Ibuki’s only sort of psychic dp or “get off me” move, you’d best be reading Cammy like a book before gambling your health.
lk.tsumuji: unless you’re using this as a poke or for quick, safe chip damage (though other tsumujis are better for chip), this move should not be used, since Cammy is not tsumuji loop-able.
Cammy
Razor’s Edge: you probably don’t know this since this is probably Cammy’s most useless move. It’s the move Cammy does when she goes for a hooligan but doesn’t press throw sometime during her animation. She ends up doing a slide which does less damage than the actual hooligan throw (rofl). In addition to being as slow and reactable as SBF, Cammy can in some situations, link her U1 (no animation) afterwards, but if you get hit by this move you probably deserve it. Have you ever seen a single game where Sakonoko used it? I haven’t either.
SBF: even your grandma can probably react fast enough to counter this. Anything within Cammy’s hitbox right before she bitch smacks you with her back hand will counterhit Cammy. This move must have the longest startup out of all the moves in the game. Something to note; she can actually combo into her U1 (no animation though) if this move connects. But damn if this dumb move hits you, you probably deserve getting hit with her ultra as well. Good Cammys will maybe use this move once in a blue moon, in this matchup anyways.
CSpike without FADC: Ibuki can punish this with neckbreaker or U2. Worst case scenario, Ibuki can dash up and do TC4 , st.LP , st.MK xx hp.Necbreaker for 300 something dmg and a vortex setup. Don’t expect many unsafe CSpikes from good Cammys.
Option Selects: (what pros do)
Ibuki
j.HP option select hp.Neckbreaker is Ibuki’s go to safe jump. Input is obvious. In this example, TC4 is used as the follow up combo but you can do whatever combo you want:
Basically it stops Cammy from backdashing out of your jumpin.
If Cammy is backdashing out of your strings, try something like cr.LP ~ cr.HK ~ cr.LP. If cr.LP is blocked, cr.HK would/should be done too early to come out, and the following cr.LP will come out instead. If cr.LP is blocked, cr.HK will come out and punish Cammy’s backdash. (thanks Orikasa)
Lastly, tsumujis, command dashes, and maybe even jumps and SJCs should be buffered when using cr.MP and st.MK pokes.
Cammy
Safe jump j.HP or j.HK option select HSA, CSpike, or U1. She can also do the same option selects with CStrike, so be careful of backdashing out of her TKCS pressure, for fear of option select ultra against a good Cammy.
Something to note about option selecting U1 against Ibuki; part of Ibuki’s backdash is airborne. If U1 were to hit her there, she’d only get hit once and then Cammy flies away with the rest of her ultra. There seems to be a specific, delayed timing such that U1 would catch Ibuki at the end of her backdash so you get the full hits and animation. Learning this timing just to option select U1 shouldn’t be a priority unless your Sako though. Option select HSA or MSA will do just fine and is a lot easier.
Good Cammys will buffer/optionselect HSA in alot of their pokes. Example: purposely whiff cr.LK, st.LP, st.MP, or cr.MK and buffer HSA. If her poke hits, HSA will come out for the knockdown.
Ibuki has a good backdash. In order to punish it in the middle of your strings, you can do something like cr.LK xx U1. If cr.LK is blocked, another cr.LK will come out and chain. If cr.LK whiffs, U1 will come out and punish the backdash. If you don’t have U1, you can also option select with SA: cr.LK xx MSA or HSA. The trick here is to end your SA input in . (thanks CoosCoos)
Option Selects Part 2: safe jumps
More Information on Option Select Situations
I found that off forward throws, backthrows, and HSA knockdowns (the three main setups for safe jumps in this matchup), there’s at least 5 options for Cammy to do a safe jump
-each of the CStrikes
-j.HP or j.HK
-j.LK
followed by 3 or so option selects to choose from
-HSA
-CSpike
-U1
And then I was testing the Ibuki side, her main options being
-block
-EX kazegiri
-HK.command dash
-Slide
-HP.Neckbreaker
-FA dash somewhere
Forward Throw
Most notably, off a forward throw, it seems HK command dash is the way to go, followed by slide/neckbreaker. Only an early CStrike can stuff it, and if you can react fast enough, that kind of CStrike can get stuffed by EX kazegiri.
Back Throw
Off a back throw, Cammy’s safe jump of choice is with j.LK. It stuffs all of Ibuki’s options since it’s meaty and low and recovers before EX kazegiri comes out. But the one thing that doesn’t beat it is a simple FA dash (toward where Cammy jumped from). I’m not 100% sure if this is viable, since j.LK does look fairly ambiguous. Cammy could possibly empty jump and then reaction punish your backdash.
HSA
For HSA knockdowns, your best bet is to randomize your wakeup tech, especially randomizing the number of frames you stay on the ground before teching to abuse the tech window. This really really throws off Cammy’s timing, no matter what option select she tries. If you don’t tech, Cammy can still attempt CStrike crossups so this isn’t exactly in your favor.
Note
These are the probably the best options Cammy has for these situations, but really, it’s like option selecting against Dictator. It’s a 50/50 chance. Some things beat others, some other things beat that. Like for example, in Ibuki vs Dictator, Neckbreaker option select beats his Teleport, but loses to his EX psychocrusher.
Lastly, I need more testing on this but it seems Cammy may be able to do a meaty CStrike aimed right at Ibuki’s head (lol headshot) such that it’s outside of EX kazegiri range and stuffs that, but is also meaty so it stuffs any command dash attempt. This may lose to reversal timed slide/neckbreakers though, since I believe they instantly lower Ibuki’s hitbox and make the CStrike whiff. Will need to test more on this.
I might have missed some stuff so feel free to chip in info or ask questions.
Hmm, funny how you already knew what post I was talking about. Anyways, me and Niko played like ft30 Cammy vs Ibuki and it brought up some questions:
- How do you antiair as hard as possible? I was basically dive kicking in for free, all day. Not to mention b+MP was not 100% reliable thanks to dive kick changing jump timing/trajectory.
- What options does Ibuki have vs TKCS pressure besides block and hope Cammy somehow messes up or lets you go? I was thinking maybe a psychic cl.st.HK, or raida, unless there’s some other options?
Also, playing around with the option selects motempest gave us, another option we can use is j.HP option select back jump or back super jump. It’s use is specifically limited to catching EX PC, and even then you don’t recover in time to punish it, you can only get back into Bipson’s face. Better than blocking it and letting him get away I suppose. It’ll only lose to EX scissors, but since you’re airborne you’ll only get hit once for 70 dmg.
Yeah, I noticed it earlier today when I was looking up cammy match-up info b/c ur cammy blew me up.
when I was playing against your cammy I was having problems anti-airing as with b+p as well. I think it may be better to use st.HK as an anti air in that match-up. also against cammy DK pressure, I’m thinking it s best to block and possibly take a grab rather than a combo while u look for a clutch ex dp, ex raida or backdash. being in that situation is just really bad.
Taking the throw is usually the solid option, but that goes out the window when Cammy has an unblockable vs Ibuki after a back throw.
EX kazegiri doesn’t look like a good option either. Yeah it resets the situation, and you get some dmg (160)/stun/a knockdown. But Cammy can punish it so hard, you need to be really feeling yourself when you go for it. By punish I mean dash under and do whatever she wants. U1 (480 dmg), super (350 dmg), TKCS crHP farstMP HSA (304 dmg). It’s not really worth the risk.
Hey I just noticed… raida/ex raida doesn’t give extra dmg/stun on counter hit. Wtf lol.
Ok after some testing, cl.st.HK does work. Actually, it’ll give you a counter hit most of the time, so you’ll get about 238 stun off the cl.st.HK. Followed by cr.HP, this is 438 stun plus mixup. If you manage to get another cl.st.HK cr.HP, that’s 838 stun and then you can just throw for the dizzy. Chances are Cammy won’t know wtf is going on since that would be a huge shift in momentum in a really short amount of time.
Well first thing is first
-Stay out of lk scissor kick range- Doing this is going to force him to do one of two things; 1 - do something stupid like an unsafe scissor kick, slide, or jump. All of which are highly punishable. 2- walk forward, this where you want to use your normals like f. hp, s. mp, f. lk, and tsumuji
-
don’t throw out anything low unless your punishing- when he’s pressuring you wil scissor kicks from a range use s. mp
-
Show him you know how to OS- I OS neck breaker and ex kazegiri. This is when our fun begins, start faking your safe jumps with kunais and empty jumps
-Use the overhead in your block strings to bait reversals
-If you ever see him fly up in the air to try and devil reversal, react with a command dash and punish with neck breaker
And thats how I beat Bison
How exactly are scissors kicks unsafe?
whiffing a scissor kick and using any scissor kick other than lk in my book
If you block scissors kick or slide at the very last active frames, how are you supposed to punish it?
After some more testing, I think I found a cheesy way to option select and get that extra j.MK whenever you do j.LK (as part of TC3, but can also work with the other air target combos). Basically, mash MK while wiggling the stick. Might be more effective and less scrubby if you double tap it or something. Also it only really works if you do it at your opponent’s head, since you don’t want to risk doing st.MK when you land.
After even more testing… it seems Ibuki can decide whether or not she crosses up by varying the time she presses j.MK, in the setup: EX neckbreaker , mk.cd , jump. It seems early = crossup, later = non crossup. Only tested it vs Bipson so far but it seems like a very useful tool to add to Ibuki’s vortex arsenal.
slide gets focus attacked, and mk hk scissors gets punished with the fastest combo you are comfortable with. In a situation where bison looks safe after a mk or hk scissor i would block but i never seen bison ever do that to me
oh and overhead on Bison’s wake seems completely safe to answer your other question
How are you going to know he’s going to slide? Are you just going to FA spam or something?
At max range I’m sure mk/hk scissors are safe. far.st.LP whiffs so I dunno what else to use to punish it.
well if you stand at his slide’s max range and he doesn’t have charge, he’s probably going to slide. I never fa spam against bison, I just wait for him to what I want him to do. The only thing I spam in this matchup is cr. mp and st. mp to keep him from spamming scissors
Can Ibuki do anything in reaction to Jaguar Tooth? I’m not talking about a hail mary Raida or B. MP either. Do you guys usually just block and ex dp?
How is it a hail mary? Raida and b+MP are pretty much safe if Adon does the lk/mk jaguar tooths to fake you out. Two other options you’re missing are neutral jump and block + U1.
You can’t punish with EX kazegiri since jaguar tooths are not -5 on block.
Err, maybe I got the name mixed up. His axe kick like move that they spam to chip.
I also meant I DP’ed that before it hit me, not as a punish. I knew about b.mp beating out all wall dives, sorry for the confusion.
Ah, you mean Jaguar Kick. Usually either b+MP, EX kazegiri, or an early/anticipation neutral jump. If you are really gdlk however, if you manage to command dash or otherwise slip through, like say when he’s pressuring you with JK pressure, you can U1 his recovery.
I’ve been sliding under his Jaguar Kicks and I like it more than command dashing.
Sliding and command dashing both work, but it really depends on which JK he goes for. I did some testing long ago when I played with xxteef’s Adon on what Ibuki can do about JK pressure. Dunno where it went though.
Didn’t see this in the first page but thought about something when fighting some Rose online. I wasn’t even sure of her frame data but it just looked all too slow not to try. She had me pinned in a corner (lol get em Ibuki) and she went for a max range cr.mp into her jab projectile. Even after blocking the fireball, I U2’ed her and it hit clean.
That brings up another question I’ve been meaning to ask. Ibuki’s Ultra 2 has a start up of 1+8. What does that mean exactly? 1frame of black and 8frames of start up? So does that mean that the first hit is on the 9th frame?