Please elaborate; Under what circumstances would you want to use a move that has a charge up time and is hugely negative on block in a neutral situation? I’ve never seen this happen.
Cosmic Ray has extremely long range and is +0 on block, Shooting Star has invuln which is useful in certain situations, and Lightning Arrow is a very common tool to approach or reset pressure. The lv3 version is almost always preferred; charge time is partially offset by faster startup in most cases, and some lv3 versions actually have faster total startup even with charge time included.
Tsubaki’s a close-range rushdown character whose drive replaces D normals that could help her already limited mixup game in favor three identical moves that leave her stationary, vulnerable, and that take away time that she could be using to rush people down.
But we’ve done this before.
And once again, the problem isn’t the lack of some magical “Drive normals”; They could just, you know, make her non-drive normals less awful. She has the worst overhead and worst 2B in the game. It’s not a question of ‘Oh, she’s missing drive normals’ since most characters don’t use their drive normals for pressure anyway. The problem is that her normal normals are bad. I mean, think about it. If they’re unwilling to give her non-crappy normal normals, why do you think adding some drive normals would help?
Additionally, 5D (or 2D, your choice) and j.D are now crucial to her pressure mixups, so… don’t really see much room to remove them for ‘normals’.
Besides, you should never fix a character by adding tools when you can just fix the ones they have.
Ah! These are those so called “normals” were discussing, eh? 
Seriously, these sound more like gimmicks than strategies.
No, you just said her drive was less useful than Tsubaki’s. Why would we be talking about drive “normals” specifically when Tsubaki has none?
There’s nothing gimmicky about anything I listed. Lightning Arrow in particular is one of her most used moves. It just seems like you don’t know anything about the character.
(5C > 5CC >) 2D (lvl2) > 5B > 6A > jc. > j.5C > j.5B > jc. > either aerial finish with Corona or j.5D (lvl3) to start corner pressure. This is one of Makoto’s basic combo pathways in CP.
All of Makoto’s drive-moves can be “cancelled” or delayed by holding the button down all the way, which is one of her mixup options. Like after a combo which leads to corner:
5D (delayed, opponent either falls and gets frame trapped or blocks) > cOD > 5B > you get the idea. Or 5D (delayed & blocked) > RC > 2B >…
Only thing I think she’s missing is damage. Average-to-good combo ending with DD for 2.5k is not good.
How were we not talking about how Makoto’s drive wasn’t useful in pressure because her D normals are useless there?
You really want to do this? Okay:
Three things:
- Neutral and pressure are two completely different situations.
- I listed for you two moves which can be used in neutral, and one which is frequently used in pressure. Yes her actual D normals suck for everything but combos, but I don’t see how that’s relevant when discussing the drive overall. All of her drive moves are pretty useful, if situational.
- I wasn’t arguing the Tsubaki vs Makoto thing and I don’t care to, but I want to point out that even as combo filler, Makoto would not even be a character without her D normals. They’re the only thing that allow her to do combos in the first place.
Her basic midscreen BnB (which is different from what you listed) deals over 3k, corner BnB is 3.6k, metered ender is a little under 5k. So, her damage is about average, maybe a little below average when you consider how bad it is for her to use meter in her combos. Her damage in OD is among the highest in the game, however, and it’s definitely one of her strengths. She doesn’t have any huge weaknesses, it’s just that her neutral game and pressure are both a little below average in this game.
To end this stupid discussion, ONLY the top tier characters are the most useful in any shitty BlazBlue games! The rest of the characters are fucking USELESS! Tsubaki, the NOL’s Bitch, has TERRIBLE range on ALL of her attacks, she has very LOW damage, her combos are very LIMITED, and all of her Drive special attacks are nothing but a fucking JOKE!
You DON’T mix a character that is between a human, an animal, and “fan serive”; Makoto is a FUCKING DISGUSTING character!
For God’s sake, pick up Guilty Gear!
Okay, but ArcSys is still essentially leaving everyone who did buy BlazBlue on Xbox stranded, which to me seems to me like a very dickish move. And to be honest, we don’t even really know whether sales had anything to do with ArcSys’ decision. As far to my knowledge they have not said anything as to why they’re only releasing it on PS3.
I actually think sales figures did have something to do with it as I seem to remember either early this year, or sometime last year the sales comparisons between like BB games and P4A (or P4U over in Japan) and how they sold on PS3 in Japan to how they sold on 360 in Japan, and since ArcSys tends to release things in Japan first, I imagine they’d focus more on the system that sells better. And like, I think Xrd is PS3 and PS4 only based on market predictions anyway. Then again…if people miss out on it because they bought an XB1 for…lord knows what crazy reason, then I admittedly don’t feel that sorry for them.
Totally agree. Land a 23 hit combo and do 25% damage. But don’t drop that combo. Oh, you did? Well, eat a Samurai Shodown style single hit from Hakumen for 33% damage. Wait! Many of the cool tricks in challenge mode don’t actually work and/or unsafe? Yup, eat another huge reversal from almost anyone in the cast.
That said, I main Elf in SFIV so uphill battles are nothing new to me… still… Tsubaki does suck.
Here we disagree. Wotchu got against ze unterboob? Were you bottle fed as a baby or something?
'k, now we’re back on the same page again.
Uh, weedian? Mason’s kinda a clear troll by this point. Most of us just sort of pretend he’s not there.
Actually, we feed masonjasonguy troll points. lol
Sure, but you don’t want to use a move in neutral that will kill you on block.
Yes, you’ve made this clear; But you were ALSO very clearly talking about her normals earlier, so I am kindof annoyed that you are now being all “Oh, I wasn’t talking about her normals!”
Not…even…sure what this has to do with anything. Obvious truth is obvious?
No probs. Though, bit surprised about the “disagree”. Or maybe the underboob cleavage is just less popular than I thought.
I don’t think Tsubaki is a bad character perse, I think aside from her shortcomings when not charged, I suck and just need more practice. I just get mad/salty because of an unending series of losses online. I figured I’d be able to just breeze on in from P4U and kick ass… how wrong I was. I am stubborn though, so it is my own fault.
We’ve kinda been over this. She’s not “bad” but that doesn’t mean she isn’t at a disadvantage against a large proportion of the cast. She continues to have the same problems she’s always had:
A) Dubious normals - ranging from “average” (2C used to be above average, but they nerfed it, so now it’s really nothing special) to “worst of their type in the game” (Slowest 2B that I am aware of, and has terrible range to boot, tied for slowest overhead, terrible range…)
B) Charge moves are not as good as they ought to be when you consider the difficulties of getting charge. It is, to this day, a source of infinite confusion that Hakumen, who gains meter AUTOMATICALLY, gets godlike special moves, but Tsubaki, who has to put herself into a counterhit state and do nothing else to fill her meter, has specials that are meh. By rights, 5 charge Tsubaki combos should be pretty much the most devastating things in the game, but they’re basically garbage because the rate of return on using more than ~2 charges in a combo tends to be a waste of resources.
Fixing either of these problems would make her pretty strong. Fixing both would make her top tier.
Huh, is the new Alter Memory episode not up for anybody else yet? Like, I thought they were normally up as of 2-3 hours ago.
Dunno, I’m watching it as I feel the urge, so I’m like 4 episodes behind.