Why are Birdies pre jump frames being increased from 4 to 5? In the patch notes it states this but no reason as to why?
So what? Birdie now has the highest chance out of the cast to get hit while trying to jump? Makes no sense…
There is a jump/tech option select that they are trying to eliminate by increasing pre jump frames.
Can someone explain some pressure options when you get a knockdown? So far I’m doing some very beginner stuff like overhead, command throw, or crossup. Are there any good other good options? Meaty options?
On hard knockdown, I like sticking out a can (or a banana peel if they’re in the corner) to prevent them from pushing buttons on wakeup. Better players than me can elaborate 
It depends on the attack that knocked down, the pushback and the normal/special you want to use.
Anyways, let me point out a couple of viable pressure/meaty options.
- Vskill
- Safejump
- Meaty sHK (+8 on hit, +2 on block) - This can cover both quick and backroll if the opponent doesn’t have a faster attack than 4 frames
- Meaty fHK (+5 on hit, -1 on block - This can cover both quick and backroll if the opponent doesn’t have a faster attack than 4 frames
- Meaty fHP (+6 on hit, -4 on block) - This can cover both quick and backroll if the opponent doesn’t have a faster attack than 3 frames
- Meaty cMP (+5 on hit, 0 on block) - This can cover both quick and backroll if the opponent doesn’t have a faster attack than 3 frames
- Meaty Bull slider (+3 on hit, -1 on block) - This can cover both quick and backroll if the opponent doesn’t have a faster attack than 3 frames from many distances
- Meaty HP Bullhead (-3 on block) - relatively safe if used from setups that launch the opponent at a far distance
- Meaty throw or command throw
- Meaty Bull Revengers - This can beat 3 framers and is also usually safe from neutral jump attacks
- Meaty LK/MK Hanging chain. Depending on the setup and distance/proximity of the corner, you can throw this out and catch the opponent doing anything but block on both quick and backroll.
Meaty sHK also has crush counter properties, which makes it a wonderful meaty.
For the command throw, does it beat 3 frame normals if they mash? There’s no armor even if I do ex right?
Yes, it does beat 3 frame normals.
The issue/difficulty with normal and command throws is that you need to time it right from a setup or manually, since the opponent also gains 2f of throw invincibilty on wakeup / hitstun or blockstun.
here are a couple of simple and easy to do setups you can try to beat 3 frame reversal normals:
- MP Bullhead (quick rise) : dash + normal throw / command throw
- EX Bullhead (quick rise) : dash + normal throw / command throw
- Cornered Birdie Far LK Chain (quick recovery): dash + normal throw / command throw
Whole bunch of questions incoming.
[list]
[] I know LKs are his fastest startup normals by far. Is there any reason to use st.LK over cr.LK? st.LK has similar range and doesn’t hit low. Only seems to be very slightly more safe on block.
[] Since Birdie’s normals have a lot of startup I’ve been trying to find out the best way to choose between pokes since he has lots of them. st.MK seems the overall best since it’s less than 10f and only -2 and decent range. st.HP seems best from really far away since it seems like it would be hard for most characters to punish. st.HK is at least neutral on block and his crush counter so it’s good to throw out if you can predict a mid range whiff. st.LP and cr.LP seem alright at semi-close range due to 5F startup. even his LKs seems alright at times. Does this sound about right?
[] I know Birdie has a whole bunch of ways to deal with projectiles. Which is probably the most consistent way? down-forward HP, EX Hanging Chain, any Bull Horn, or another option?
[] Speaking of, how often should I be using down-forward HP? Assuming it’s spaced right it seems like a really good move to approach with as it good range, hits low and likely hard to punish at max range.
[] Unless an opponent is really good at pressuring you up close (in which case use V Reversal), generally I should try to use V Trigger as much as possible due to added power, speed and extra armor?
[] As far as abusing his armored moves (forward HP, EX Bull Horn, etc) how often should I be doing this which are best to use?
[] Is his sweep blocked at max range basically one of the few sweeps that’s too hard to punish?
[] Generally is using Banana V Skill better when trying to make the opponent think when approaching you, and Can is better if you want to set up your own approach?
[] Non-HK Hanging Chain seems kinda difficult to use against smart opponents since they’ll block. Is cancelling often with P to throw them off a viable strategy at times or is better to not use Hanging Chain much?
[] Bull Revenger seems really easy to abuse at lower levels. Is this move still fairly viable at higher levels? Seems to have a problem with startup.
[] st.MP in theory seems like a good move since it’s only -1 on block, has alright startup and an alright range but I feel like other pokes/safe moves seem better to use as a whole. Am I underestimating this move?
[] Is cr.HP an alright anti-air? Generally I go for cr.MP but cr.HP seems to have more horizontal range but his much higher startup/recovery.
[/list]
So ill answer on what i think and anyone can tell me other wise lol.
- There really isnt a difference i dont think. I like lk just cause it feels more natural to do lk lp bull head. Im trying to use clk more it just feels weird.
- Sounds right. I like doing lp into hp from like max lp range cause its deceptively good range and catches jumpers. It mostly depends on match up really on what pokes are good to use and which to lay off.
- Also depends on match up and where projectiles are thrown. For like an up close fireball from ryu i can usually fhp right through it. Chain on a read and revenger on a read. Dfp is good when you have distance and have space to go under. Vs nash its a little harder cause its slow. For those i kinda like bull horn.
- And depends. At max range ill throw it out. Or if i read a fire ball. Kinda situational.
- I would say yeah. Theres no harm in building it quick. I like using the can and bananas more than building vtrigger. (although depends on match up)
- For armor it just depends honestly. I like fhp if i wanna take a hit and move in close. But ex bull horn is really good at punishing fireballs on reaction.
- Im not sure lol i never use it. Although i should.
- Yes. Banana is also really good in the corner if you pushed them there. Banana then bait. Or go for a mix up. (i do fhk or dfhp lol. Just to keep people on there toes) and if they try to jump you can aa and theyll land on a banana and have to block it or they’ll trip and you can combo. I like setting up cans after mp chain cause it almost seems free then i can see what they do and gain knowledge of what to do next time.
- Its mostly for fireball reads but ill do something like can hold up chain and if they jump the can let it rip or cancel if they are just going to block. So i say yes but not to be used to often. Maybe do it so they go like “crap he gunna chain me ill block” then you cancel and go in.
- Im not high level so idk. But i doubt it. If they like blocking alot you can like lp light revenger to test their reactions or birdie knowledge but other than the occasional revenger its really only good on hard fireball reads
- Im going to say yeah. Its his best poke into a special that he has. The range is ok but once you get in that range most characters have to walk forword for their pokes to hit.
- I guess on a read its not bad? I guess? Lol. I never use it unless by accident. Cmp it like too go to use anything else ha!.
[list]
[] sLK is better used when trying to punish things that are -4 or worse. It allows you to hitconfirm into sLP which goes pretty far. cLK however causes a ton of pushback on hit and can only combo into sLK that doesn’t go as far as sLP.
[] More or less. sHP comes with a danger, if the opponent happened to jump then you’re most definitely going to eat a jumpin. Additionally, cMK hits farther than sMK and is a deceptively far reaching low which is also safe. Bull slider is also a far reaching low, but it’s slower and often punishable. Use these if your opponent always high blocks, never punishes or walks back midscreen (vs your overhead).
[] + Bull charge (fHP), VT EX Bullhead and VT EX Bullhorn (vs 2 hitting or ex fireballs)
[] discussed in point 2
[] If the opponent knows what he’s doing and is good at pressuring then Vreversal won’t work. It’s common to even interrupt Birdie’s vreversal with a throw. That’s why most of the vbar goes straight to V-Trigger.
[] fHP is viable if used to punish fireballs, mika dropkicks or other character specific things. It also viable if used meaty or at max range so that it’s safer to use, otherwise it’s -7 and everyone can punish that hard. I personally only use EX Bullhorn to punish fireballs or if I have VT stocked so I can convert it into a lot of damage.
[] Yes, and especially if it’s meaty. Here’s a setup that will annoy a ton of characters: fthrow, cHK (hits meaty and hits rather far)
[] I don’t really use banana since it just gives my opponent opportunities while taking risks for myself, unless they have no way to punish it or take advantage of the situation (only Zangief afaik)
[] cancelling LK and MK hanging chain off of cHP can interrupts 5 framers. It’s especially handy if used from max range (f.ex after EX Headbutt xx VT on block)
[] This mainly depends on your opponent’s familiarity on bull revenger. Not all top players react to or punish it as they should. It’s still handy to beat some fireballs.
[] No, you pretty much said it how it is. The hitbox on it isn’t as handy to whiff punish any low kick attack either.
[] cHP is slow but a great anti air since you can either go into TC or special cancel into Vskill. Also don’t forget about fHK. It’s as fast as cMP, but hits much higher and farther.
[/list]
great after anti-air crMP. catch people with it all the time
Hey guys, a bit of a newbie question for SF in general but I find it more relevant when I play birdie.
Here’s the scenario. Say, I missed my anti air and the opponent did a crossup on me and I blocked it. Naturally when he lands he’s on the offence and he’s in my face. He’ll most likely spam a few normals. Some combination of LP/LK, crMP hoping to land a hit and then convert into a special. So during this time on the ground where he is dishing out normals, is it safe for me to tap throw as a tech?
I ask because I always have a fear of getting thrown. So I have a habit of tapping throw when I see the animation of any movement. But I also find that I get hit by these ground normals a lot. Should I just be patience and only block in that situation? Am I suppose to only tech throw when I see a throw? I don’t have that kind of reaction…
I used to play SF4 a bit if that matters.
Patience. You can learn to see the throw coming, and react to the setup, rather than reacting to the actual throw.
Honestly, I would rather eat a couple of throws than eat crush counters. Birdie has a bit of extra health too, so if you have to take a throw or two, it’s not that big a loss. And if someone is throwing you constantly, you have more opportunities to read the tech.
So Cr. MP is a great antiair, but against people who really really like to jump, I find that if I’m in the middle of an MK poke or similar when they jump just outside MK range, I haven’t got the time to antiair. This means that I’m discouraged from pressing buttons against them, and I find myself just shimmying and ducking, waiting for them to throw themselves at me. The smarter players start using this to their advantage.
I’ve been thinking of tossing out the occasional standing HP when in medium range, to catch them if they jump forward. Is this at all productive for that purpose? Or is there any other way to discourage them from jumping while still harassing them on the ground?
I guess if they’re actively reacting to pokes by jumping (feels like some Gold players do that), I could just throw in more lights and such to fake them out at that range. DF HP is also good for moving forward so they miss their jumpin.
If you’re fighting an opponent who has the tendency to jump in when you whiff one of your pokes, then it’s best you adjust to this and bait him by using max range cLP. This way you can still AA him in time.
Hey could you guys help me list out the options like this.
On wakeup if I think my opponent will throw I should:
[list]
[] tech throw
[] ex KH(this is throw invuln?)
[/list]
On wakeup if I think my opponent will throw out a meaty I should:
[list]
[] block
[] ex bullhorn (will armor come out fast enough?)
[/list]
On wakeup if I think my opponent will neutral jump and hit from above I should:
[list]
[] ex bullhorn
[] crMP (fast enough?)
[*] block
[/list]
On wakeup if I think my opponent will crossup I should:
[list]
[] ex bullhorn
[] block
[/list]
(Autocorrect) super can be added in every scenario of yours btw.
Backdash and backjump are also options you can use.
If it’s laggy or you notice the opponent doesn’t have a good grasp of timing his normals on your wakeup, then you can get away with jumping or backdashing.
VT EX Bullhead is also an option (that starts up in 8 frames)
Keep in mind that if u’re trying to use EX Bullhorn on wakeup to beat meaties, then it comes with 3 issues.
- EX Bullhorn starts up in 15 frames. Most light to medium normal meaties have a faster recovery than 15 frames. So if they do a really meaty attack and they know what they’re doing (with setups and stuff) then bullhorn can still get blocked. This also counts for V-Reversal which starts up in 16 frames.
- EX Bullhorn doesn’t have a buffer window, so you need to be absolutely frame perfect in releasing it, which is difficult against meaties.
- It also loses to well timed multi-hitting normals like Ryu’s overhead, axe kick and solar plexus or Chun li’s VT moves or Cammy’s knee bullet. This issue solved however in VT.
(autocorrect) VT EX Bullhead also works for these
So in all cases, VT EX bullhead is better than EX bullhorn correct? Remind me again, VT Ex bullhead has armor while VT bullhead doesn’t? I thought it does.
@nom
VT EX Bullhorn still has 2 hits of armor, so it’s still useful in some cases.
Normal VT Bullhead and normal VT Bullhorn have very little armor, it starts up at around frame 2 or 3 and stays for a small time as if u need to parry with it.
It’s only useful to beat blockstrings that aren’t true blockstrings, jab bullhead being the main choice since it starts up so fast.
For example vs Necalli’s low forward xx stomp or max range low forward xx hadoken or to interrupt Chun li’s normals after slide xx VT on block.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to AA with it, but it’s not exactly easy or consistent to do.
It’s better you try this out in training mode yourself and gauge how easy/difficult it is to use.