I’m sitting here in a region where a Birdie has won EVERY tournament we’ve run, and you think he needs buffs?
Play Vega for a week and tell me Birdie has any real issues goddamn
Honestly I feel like talking about buffs/nerfs for ANY character this early in a game is just silly. We don’t know shit yet, not even Infiltration/Art/etc. fully understand matchups yet. I haven’t seen any player use Birdie to his full potential. I haven’t seen anyone who has integrated bullhorn seamlessly into their gameplay. I think only Ryu/Bison might be like 85% figured out, everyone else is nowhere near.
I recently played a bunch of solid players offline and blowing through fireballs with horn is WAY easier than online. I feel like it will require a lot of experience with Birdie to know when to use specific buttons for horn/ex.horn. Like in some instances you want that hk for max punish/mixup, in others you need the mp for AA, in others you need lights for teching throws, etc. If you’re always only using one button for horn then I think top players will read it and exploit it. The people I play with are already starting to pick up on this and I’m forced to mixup my horns.
This is really the only reason why I’d wanna use a proper fightstick. Having all buttons available for holding down at all times without interfering with your ability to press other buttons is a big boon. Doing the same thing on the PS4 pad is hard.
What??? Vega is great?! So your local scene has a great Birdie so that’s proof he doesn’t need a buff? Sounds like whatever character he plays would have the same outcome. I’m looking at regionals or locals where there are several top tier fgc players not your local tournament(no offence) Birdie seems like a good pocket character for some matchups and has enough 5-5 to be B+…but i think there is nothing else to discover other than better matchup knowledge, which other players will get as well. Honest play can only take you so far. Using bullhorn more is not gonna make him a stronger character. In fact i tested bullhorn on some matchups and is great, but those match ups were not a problem, i have failed to find use for those that are a problem. it’s a good tool to have but not a gamechanger even if your an ace at it. But honestly Fireball characters is not a problem for me.
Seeing LPN drop Birdie is enough to raise questions, seeing lack of birdie in top 16 in a regional raises questions, something about that he may need a tiny bit more. I find it funny how people are up at arms for the slightest buff. Like making a better v-reversal would be too much to ask…and my school of thought is i want everyone to be an A or have every match a 5-5. This is not a birdie should be buff and nobody else either, the other lacking characters should be buff to somewhere. I shouldn’t be rewarded for people mashing badly spaced buttons because i feel like a good player with good reaction and defense will make you work hard for it…and you really need meter to start a good offence, but you also need that meter to get yourself out. So if your meterless vs a good player it’s an uphill battle on both offence and defense.
But i’ll admit i played great fgc players online and won and lost my fair share of battles to them. I do use a legacy controller on PS4…so input lag on controller and the lag on ps4 vs v-sync off pc could probably benefit the lack of defense and reactionary times. I hope Capcom reduces the input lag in a future update. A game that is held in the forefront of tournament play with such big input discrepancy vs it’s competitors truly is unacceptable.
For the most part, I agree with @TwoCoins. Birdie is a very solid character, but I don’t think he’s top 10. That is okay because I don’t believe the disparity between the A and B characters to be that vast.
Having said that…
- Birdie has a hard time opening people up. His command grab range lacks a little range and should be throw immune without the EX. If you walk someone down, a smart (heck even an average player), will neutral jump. Why? Because the punishment for doing so is very low.
- Birdie’s chains are too slow. They are usually only good as a preemptive read on a projectile. Shaving a few startup frames off would make them more useful. I would also like to see an EX Up chain.
- Bull Revenger is too slow, has a very short grab window, and can be beaten by anything. We are going to see people reacting to EX very soon.
- Birdie’s damage is not that good. Most of his damage comes via pokes. His burst damage comes off crush counters and v-trigger cancels. His most consistent confirm st. mp -> mp bullhead doesn’t do that much damage. I haven’t done a deep dive on confirms to damage, but I am willing to bet that Birdie is at the middle of the pack AT BEST.
- His v-skill is GREAT, when you can set it up and is integral for LONG-TERM viability of the character. The can takes WAY too long to deploy. Quick Rise seems to hurt Birdie’s pressure game with his v-skill. I am not sure why the peel hits high instead of low. To stop unblockabes with F+HK? His V-Skill just feels too slow for SFV. If this were SF4, it would be borderline OP.
I am not sure if there is anything ‘new’ to discover with the character. Chain canceling and better use of bullhorn for faster punishes and better OKI setups are what I see happening in the immediate future. Better meatie setups will improve his pressure. Maybe something will be discovered to make his V-Skill more of a factor.
If I were Capcom, I would be very careful changing Birdie. I would start with shaving startup frames off his v-skill and his chains. Measure the changes over the long-haul and see where he lands.
It’s a good point that Horn is is great in fireball matchups but not great in others; might have overestimated the importance of it slightly. But I still feel nobody is maximizing it. Everyone AAs with cr.mp or cr.hp but I haven’t seen people AA with Horn x Vtrigger into extra damage for example. Here and there but it’s not part of their game yet.
I disagree with pretty much everything RIF said. Any character with good pokes, command grab and overhead shouldn’t have trouble opening anyone up… and Birdie has the Revenger on top of all those. For comparison, I think Bison has trouble opening people up cause all he has is frame traps and you can just block. Revenger is slow but it would be OP if it was faster, you’re not supposed to just throw it out and hope people can’t react. It’s for opening up people that you scared into just blocking. Birdie’s damage is really good, j.hp cr.hp x hk.chains is like 300dmg. st.mp >mp.head is good damage, compare that to something like Ryu’s cr.mk x fireball or Necali st.mk cr.mp x stomps.
I think his vskill is great but I also think as we get further into the game it will be harder and harder to actually use it. I still see people who don’t quick rise and punish it. Then I play people who punish from 3/4 of the screen and really realize how rarely it’s actually safe.
We will see what happens with the character over time. j hp -> cr hp is a post-stun combo, not a typical confirm. Revenger/EX Revenger can be poked out of. People will start to reaction counter it.
His pokes are good. His command grab is good, but his walkspeed outside of V-Trigger is not great. His dashing is not great. His OH is react-able. I am not saying he isn’t a solid character. I see him falling off a bit as the game progresses. His reversal eats (pun intended) into the tool that makes him exponentially stronger. This is obviously by design, but that’s something to consider when you look at a character’s overall progression.
I could be completely wrong and a year from now, Birdie players could be placing in top 10s in majors all across the world.
I played SETHLOLOL in a set and i could not land a single ex raveger… his reasoning… he just reacted to anything yellow…so yeah people are learning how to deal with it lol…and forget ever landing non ex version in a match vs a skilled player… it’s hard OPENING up skilled players not any players…his command grab has to be in hugging distance, a bit farther then it whiffs…ex raverger will go over them at that range, if only you can make it lp range not just farther range…anyone with a fast walk speed is annoying… since they are in and out of birdies sweet spot willie nillie… anything closer outside of standing jab will lose and most know where his sweet spot is and will block and react to any ravagers… …his overhead is good but flawed…since if someone blocks the first active hit then they can easily block the the overhead portion…and at range anyone can easily just poke it or block on reaction, also punishable on block. Basically anyone who can block is a problem and your only REAL option is ex raveger…but that requires meter leaving Birdie with nothing…and again… PEOPLE ARE LEARNING TO REACT TO IT, lol…i normally wouldn’t mind just doing grey damage but everything has massive push on block so they eventually jump back and and i have to get back in. And the moves to get in are pretty negative on block if improperly spaced. In fact most of birdies specials are pretty damn punishable on block or whiff.
A couple of points. One, if people are reacting to the yellow flash of ex dolphin and jumping, try ex chain on their wakeup at ex dolphin distance. It will catch them trying to jump out. Second, consider holding charge for bullhead so you can release if they jump on their wakeup. There might even be a way to option select it in a block string. Like st lk, release bullhead, st lp.
I agree, a good amount of Birdie is gimmicky and as people start to figure out he will drop off, I already see it when I’m playing vs people in my group. Only the bad players get hit by Revenger. Other than that though the mixups are still working but it’s harder and harder to get those reads… you can do meaty overhead only so many times.
About being able to react to stuff. This is kind of like jumping. People can react to jumps and anti-air. A good player will jump in when the opponent is pressing buttons or doing stuff so they’re unable to anti-air. It’s the same with Revenger, chains, etc. You can’t just do them in neutral, you have to have a reason why you’re doing it. Just like with jump ins, you better have a reason why you’re going in.
I thought birdie was weak due to gimmicks but actually he can play super solid and be decent. He’s never gonna be chun in terms of footsies but he is still pretty strong in that regard.
If I’m reading this correctly, the EX version is -49 on block, so isn’t this a free dash in at best, and punishable at worst if blocked?
Yes, that’s what’s gonna happen. But Sethlol plays Laura so he’ll just do the command dash attack thingy and punish hard…and let me tell you something. You don’t want laura anywhere near you.
EX chain seems to have a sweetspot for where you can throw it out to catch people pushing buttons, but where it won’t get punished. I mean, yes, if it’s blocked you are at least giving up offense. But that’s the case with most of these moves.
Granted, there are some characters who will punish ANY blocked chain. Fairly sure Nash can CA to punish any blocked chain on max range, for instance. Had it happen to me once.
Fuck that character.
No, it’s -21 on block point blank (at a range where you’ll never see it). Dashes typically have 16-17f startup.
So anywhere outside point blank, you can’t consistently punish it with a dash + normal.
edit
At max range, I believe EX is -5 on block and normal chain is -8 on block.
Nash his CA has 10f startup
Hmm. My memory must be exaggerating, then. Good to know!
What I DO know is that bananas and cans make NASH trip over himself when trying to punish anything with his CA, regardless.
So Meaty Chain is generally safe? Maybe against something like Chun super it will lose?
For the record I’m not advocating that you do meaty ex chain bur if you want to open up the possibility of doing ex dive, that’s how you can do it. I prefer just playing footsies though. In a first to five, I might do ex dive like one or two times total.