"BEST BIPSON!" - Dictator Match-Ups

Can we get some updated Honda matchup info. That one is still a royal pain for me. Seems like you don’t have to think to use Honda against Bison. Have serious problems trying to sit on a life lead since Bison can’t AA him with any consistency and its only matter of time before you eat a tick oicho or get hit trying to avoid one.

Before anyone tries to point me to Dogura vs Mike Ross, I somehow doubt that it gonna work again if they ever fight. I saw solid play sure but I also saw a lot of gimmicks that coulda cost Dogura if Mike knew of them. Besides no one has bothered to list anything useful from that match besides a stupid obsession with empty DR to an auto correct charge move…

Honda’s tough, as you said its difficult to sit on a life lead because anti airing him consistently is impossible.
Neutral jump MK/HK can stop his jump in’s but you need to predict and that can leave you exposed to pokes and EX.Headbutt.
Back dashing or simply using EX.PC to get to the other side of him will delay his pressure.
If he whiffs forward jumps or moves forward with neutral jump hp in front of him, you can jump in on him to start pressure because he won’t have charge for Headbutt and should lack time to do S.HP. But if your slow with the jump he can simply S.HP you or use jump back HP.

Obviously on the ground Bison outpokes him, but C.LP has alot of active frames to be snagged by (normally buffered to HHS) and his S.HK annoyingly hits low so its not totally a free domain for Bison. Use S.HK to swat down any predictable NJ.HP. Not Honda’s NJ.HP can’t hit a crouching Bison (Bison’s NJ.HP can’t even hit a standing Honda) S.HK to S.HK on counterhit does not work on Honda, combo into S.MK instead.

On Bisons wake up Butt Slam and cross up J.MK can snag EX.PC escape, use EX.SK to escape without that risk. Honda can use NJ.HP over a waking Bison to snag EX.DR which is countered by Stomp ,but because he can move forward with a neutral jump, he can neutral jump forward over Bison to make Headstomp whiff or if Bison doesn’t perform a reversal simply cross him up. He can’t punish EX.PC on block when he’s right beside so you can use that to escape if he’s right in front of you, but if he’s a little bit further back he can land C.LP into Hands or simply do EX.Headbutt on reaction to stuff you clean. Meaty EX.Headbutt counter Bisons’s ground reversals and backwards teleports as well as being safe on block and safe from air move reversals. Only teleporting behind Honda gives Bison’s a chance to punish.

On Honda’s wake up from an untechable knockdown you can use a late cross up to prevent him from auto correcting his Ex.Headbutt. You can tag the Ex.Headbutt with OS S.MK. A later cross up can catch Ex.Headbutt after its invincibility wears off an enables a full combo because he is still grounded. But he can auto correct the EX.Headbutt and nail you. Mix the two options up.

You can punish Ex.Headbutt by blocking point blank and using super (Whiffs 2 hits)
Jump back bait into Ultra 1 or 2. This does work. LAb it so you get the timing.
Block in the corner and punish with C.MK/MP xx whatever.
Against wake up Buttslam, Blocking high against light Buttslam will make its second hit whiff allowing you to punish with either ultra.
The other buttslams should whiff and be punishable with at least a throw into a set up.
If you corner Honda, blocking high on his wake up allows you to punish light Buttslam and all Headbutts.

Against non reversal butt slams, use focus attack. His hard strength buttslam is punishable on block with C.LK (its -3 on block)
The rest are -2. Blocking buttslam often leads to a mix up of another buttslam which you can stuff with jump back hard kick (will lose to EX.Buttslam)
or focus attack, or Ex. Headbutt which counter everything but a jump back.

Light and EX.Headbutt are safe on block (except where I mentioned above) . You can chip them back with LK.SK but if they have another bar of meter they can stuff that with another EX.Headbutt. MP Headbutt can be punished with LK/MK/EX on block (MK must be done from a standing block) while HP Headbutt can be punished with all strength SK.

One of Honda’s favourite mix ups is FADCi-ing HHS on block to Ochio, hold up as soon as you see the flash for a good punish.
Don’t bother trying to use DR to build meter if Honda has charge, its shut down by Headbutt.
Honda can build meter with whiff Ochio at full screen. EX.PC is your only realistic shot of punishing that or at least getting you in safely.
If Honda is sitting on a life lead with meter your screwed. Do all in your power to bait out Ex.Headbutts.

Also cross up Psycho Crusher is quite safe on Honda’s wake up. Buttslam whiffs and EX.Headbutt if autocorrected will run into the back of normal Psycho Crusher.
You can land both hits of EX.SK after hell attack if you time the EX.SK to hit just before Honda hits the ground.
His command throws including his EX command throw lack any throw or hit invincibility.

Well the advice helped. Double time over victory against the Honda that was pissing me off tonight

Some interesting anti cammy tech I found in a labbing session after getting trounced by Cammy.

If Cammy combo’s into spiral arrow, or anytime she hits you with the 2 hits of HK spiral arrow (except at point blank range) Cammy is in the perfect position for J.LK cross up/late dive kick none cross up/cross up mixup if you decide to quick stand. One of the annoying things about this set up is that her J.LK cross up interferes with RDP +3K teleport input and you end up getting a normal and counterhit.

I’ve found using the a half circle forward motion +3K gives me the fullscreen teleport I want. I’m pretty sure its out of range of option selects as well.
If she switches to dive kick (which may or may not be a cross up), the same half circle forward +3K input gives you EX.SK wihich evades the dive kick (lol at this games inputs). Obviously you need to hold charge for this. You could use 3P to get EX.PC to be safer but you won’t get the most distance on your teleport.

Anyone play against a lot of Viper?

The best punishes for her wake-ups, apart from HP thunder knuckle (EX knuckle and EX seismo)?

Bison does NOT beat honda on the ground. While you CAN punish a whiff cr.lp with st.mk the timing is too strict to be reliable.

Doesn’t work most of the time

I don’t really know much to this point, all I know if you out patient Honda, you win, or he kill you.
this is more like “FUNDAMENTAL SHOW” who have more fundamental and patient will win…if you anti air, you get the set up and have Ultra 1. Honda is easier than Sagat, but if you can’t get lead, and can’t punish him jump in with Ultra 1, is gonna be super freak’in hard let me tell you…

EX psycho for anti air is not bad, some honda will never give up jump in as an option because the reward is too high, so bare in mind that he will NOT give up certain things might help, at least you don’t have to prepare for it for whole match and he didn’t do it at all and it cause you lose focus…he will jump, for sure.

Anyone know the Adon match up? anti air is not everything now =_=

All I gotta say for Adon is like… “fundamentals”… whiff punishing is pretty big in here. You chip him, he chips you back… you can’t deal with some of his stuff. Whiff punishing his s.HK in footsie range, the Jag kicks, Jag tooths, and the c.MP xx Jag kicks with delayed EX moves to start. I don’t have specifics but his dp is 5f I think. Wiki says his LK dp is 4f but you can treat him like anybody else’s dp the same and safe jump it.

If you get cornered and he Jaguar tooths, a well timed jump back j.HP, c.MP xx Psycho and whiff punish for big damage and get out. Blocked EX-Psycho can be punished by his U1 at some points but I think most people will pick U2 for FADC Ultra cuz if they pressure you and frame you good, you’re done.

I would suggest learning the c.MP, s.MK and c.MP, s.HK link timing for good non-charge damage in general.

I have pretty inconsistent safe jump on Adon, cheat jump and cross up fierce is not really working on him, only thing really work is mix up on auto correct whiff, I do forward throw and dash then jump in fierce. and back throw cross up MK or RH hit front.

most whiff punish I can do is like you said, st.mk is one of my problem, if I can link st.mp st.mk it should be pretty nice.

BTW for Honda match up, HONDA must really learn jump in light punch to really open you up, and as Bison, you must use RAW ultra 1 and play slow, to slowly wear him out, I think Bison can win easier if Honda don’t really know how to jump in, but bait out EX headbutt, and punish butt slame are like most important things, since if Honda can’t jump in at you, he can’t really start hands, and you can walk to him and punish whiff oricho easy. He either risk butt slam or random mid range head butt which some honda use safe one and EX after you block the safe one and try to punish, that is like most he can do, and honda wake up are some what ass, so if you cross him up, and he block your cross up move, sometime I just teleport out, you will see all sorts of things flying out, even ultra. ( I think you can block all of them, ex head butt will stop in front of you)

If you found out now he is finally in corner, and you stand in perfect range which you can walk up using st.mk to punish everything, just make sure you have charge when he jump, since your Ultra 1 is so good, Honda will either die in corner, or jump and you active your ultra.
I am so happy they fix that jump in mp, that move used to stuff up everything, really, even DP.

Ok, after many years of playing dictator I can say I have earned my rights to talk from an experienced perspective. It is very obvious to me that the tier lists were designed by individuals that at best are simply human, and consequently, do not have godlike or computer-like ability to analyze SF matchups perfectly, and at worst have not even bothered to look up rules of game theory and instead apply artificial (hence arbitrary) and subjective concepts. I say this because it is so obvious that while Bison is a “good” character, meaning he has some things that give him a fighting chance from a strategic perspective, nonetheless falls short, very short, which is tragic given his height.

Bison lacks damage output. This is a major problem for being that he also lacks defense once his pressure gets going the times where his momentum can be reversed (I don’t mean merely by a reversal here but reversed in the larger sense) he in most cases loses big. Basically if Bison guesses right on average he does a small amount of damages where as when many other characters guess right they do much more. I see this as a constant trend. And I am not even talking about ultras yet. Just as basic BnB combos are concerned he is outmatched in many cases. Sure inevitably someone will mention his heavy punishes like c.mp/mk, heavy SK/PC, but the openings for these are small because they require major recovery frames as far as punishes go. And even still the damage you get from that is good but not great.

I want to know why capcom fails to address this? And I wont even get started about how broken (in a bad way) skull diver and DR are or how he lacks any consistent combo into ultra which would give him the comeback strength and/or offense to keep up. I find it stupid that Bison has to basically murder you like two times over in just about every matchup given his damage output (in useable terms here) where as other characters have option after option with all sorts of damage and what not.

I don’t want to here a damn thing about how his pressure is safe either because his pressure inevitably must result, given his lack of defense, in him committing to guesswork where the opponent, if they guess right, can, in most cases, out-damage Bison.

Just about every other expert level Bison who I have ever known either on PSN or talked to in person shares a similar opinion, and for good reason. Sure every player is going to gripe about their character, but in Bison’s case there is legitimate and empirical evidence. My opinion has been that the reason many feel Bison is so strong is mainly because of the psychological pressure the character can inflict, but that has nothing to do with strategic value in reality.

I feel like I’m back in 2009.

Yeah,

Bison had problems then and he has problems now.

He has remained relatively unchanged in some aspects, swapped some things around, got some minor buffs and nerfs. He was mid to low at the end of Vanilla, so how is he much better off now?

zzz All characters have pros and cons. Bison isn’t so bad. Good pressure, normals and a variety of escape options. Average anti-airs and pretty average damage. It’s not a bad trade off. There are characters who are far worse off than Bison.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for. If you’re just looking to vent, then well go ahead, but your negativity really isn’t going to do much at this point. None of us are Capcom designers, and it’s pretty clear that after four iterations of the game, Capcom is happy with his current design.

These are basically the same arguments from 2009. He’s a good character but not top tier. He has his issues, but other characters have theirs. I don’t think anybody has really argued that he was a top character ever since the beginning of vanilla or the beginning of super. The latest community tier list has Bison pretty much in the middle with like 15 characters right around him.

I guess I’ll break your post down paragraph by paragraph and express my opinion on each of your points to keep my thoughts in order:

When people create tier lists they rank characters based solely on their tools and how they interact with opponents for instance Bison vs Rufus should be 6-4 in Bison’s favor because his general gameplay counters Rufus’ by a high margin (I don’t want or need to let him in vs I must get in) as well as most of his tools cover the space Rufus needs to occupy to be really effective. They do not take into account that we are human and we’re gonna make mistakes, Rufus is going to get in and generally a competent Bison vs a competent Rufus will still get stunned by Rufus. I have a problem with the way the tiers are calculated as well but since tiers are a general guideline anyway, it doesn’t make sense to make a big fuss of it. Right your own match up analysis for how you want to play cause you’re probably the best person to analyze your own matches anyway.

I agree with this statement but it is a necessary evil. The game where Bison had high damage output along with his tools (which haven’t really changed in 20 years, just the fighting engine changes around him) was Capcom vs Snk 2 which he was one of the best characters. Bison’s tools set him up as a footsie mid range character who goes in whenever he can and gets out as fast as he can. To add damage output to that mixture would make him way too broken and he’d get even more cried about than he does now. Imagine him with his tools doing 200 dmg on a simple BnB… I would hate fighting the mirror match…

I guess the above paragraph kinda addresses this one as well. Capcom won’t change him cause he’s actually fine the way he is. He still has stupid things he can abuse but he isn’t overly more powerful than the cast. He’s just… annoying… like a 90’s boss character should be…

LOL I agree with this (it’s more of a fact than opinion anyway) and to be honest I’m still kinda one of those people mostly because I bitch about him in SFxT. I think he’s a horrible character in that game. Anyhow, to be honest with you a lot of ‘expert’ Bison players appeared in Super where he was strongest in SF4… I started playing him in SF4 and that’s where there were legitimate claims of him being weak and even then they weren’t so terrible. I just feel that people pick him up and expect him to be this crazy high damage character, play him for a few weeks/months and find out he’s the exact opposite of that. People need to understand he’s a footsie character, his main goal is to outplay people in the footsie department and that his tools are designed for that. Fast walkspeed and long reaching normals make him geared towards that…

Anyhow, that’s my two cents which is probably like a $1.50 right now because my post is so bloody long. Hope this at least helps you to understand the character better… If you still don’t like him, go pick Cammy… That bitch’s crazy!!

@ Nintendochad64,

I have been playing Bison since ST, although at that time I was really more of a mortal combat fan and never took SF that serious until Alpha1. Bison has been my main through every SF that featured him since, including the EX games (I know some count those and some don’t but w/e :slight_smile: ). I understand the character just fine, trust me.

Now let me make something clear. I think the main issue with Bison ultimately can be traced to his lack of damage output, however, that does not mean that I think the solution is to up is damage in some crazy or insane fashion.

Here is what I think would be a good way to solve the problem that wouldn’t make him broken or scrubbed out.

Fix his air moves so they actually work, save for HS which is fine. DR and SD need to be fixed which if done correctly would add a vertical dimension similar to what he actually had in ST. Then give him something like his back through to be something like it was in EX insofar as he could combo after it. That would address some of his tactical flaws and give him added damage while limiting it in a way that could not be abused. Bison uses throws but the back throw, assuming he is in pressure mode is not something he wants to do because it will free his victim from the corner. However the back throw can be used at times to push them into the corner depending and at this time he would have the option to do more damage. It would make it a move where you would have to think what do you want - continued pressure towards the corner or greater damage off of a throw which might or might not aid you in continued corner pressure.

All bison needs (imo) is his stun output increased, up the stun on sk & pc an extra 50 to 100. That way bison has more reason to stay aggressive.

You played the EX games too? Wow, I feel bad mentioning them in conversation a lot of the time cause people give me evil stares and crap.

I agree with improving skull diver, that move is pretty much useless. Every time I try to use it I get punished hard somehow so I stay as far away from it as I can. I really really think the backthrow idea would definitely elevate Bison to scrubby level to be honest. No one else in the cast can combo off of a normal throw at all (as far as I can tell, bloody game’s broken every other day) so Bison would be the only character that can do it. Plus as a character he does really well at switching positions with the opponent so his gameplay would be ‘Get opponent in corner, psycho into the corner, backthrow into stupid damage’. It’d be a mess especially since Bison isn’t bad at frametrapping characters.

Right, Gouken backthrows and just scratches his balls