When we play video games that require muscle memory and strict timing and one or more variables change in the equation (say a controller/PCB or the video display) our mind tells us that something isn’t right. This is often misinterpreted as one actually being able to perceive a small amount of “lag” that should not be detectable to an average human being. Take this example:
I learn to play a game with controller x and monitor a with system m. I know all of my links, combos, etc by muscle memory. Then one day I’m at a friend’s and I have controller x and system m but we have monitor b this time. This hypothetical monitor has less input lag with the setup but I’m still dropping combos. This is the opposite of the situation that people are typically worried about. Because you condition your mind in a certain environment, any change to that environment no matter how small can make a huge difference. Your mind can compensate either way (Of course within reason. Ignoring the most horrible setups possible.). The reason that many people here and elsewhere suggest certain displays is mostly because these devices are proven and used almost universally for competitive play. If you’re having fun playing on your Xms input lag display then good. If you are judging your ability to perceive humanly impossible amounts of lag while playing a game that you play regularly using muscle memory situations, you are making a mistake. I don’t know that is what @ParryAll did or is doing but I do know that without a solid lag test result for whatever large display he is using there will be room for misinterpretation.
This 110%
Well said, but it’s not quite what I’m talking about.
Thanks for the recommendation. I bought the BenQ at Newegg for the same price as Amazon and saved an extra $15.xx on sales tax.
Ahhh you finally responded like a human being.
This is a first.
No, this is the first time you have.
If I ever make a claim that you are wrong I explain why.
You on the other hand press the “lol” button. That’s trolling.
But again I’m extremely happy that you took the time to respond like a human being for once.
Because I’m the OP and as much as you’ve shown disrespect towards me I find it hard in my heart to ignore people no matter what they say. And trolls love that they love pushing my buttons cause they know I’ll respond every time. You’ve risen above troll level because you actually responded to me in a logical and friendly way so you’re close to graduating out of ignore list status.
It’s not a compliment but you’re finally being cool now.
Idk if I’d be proud of being compared to a child murdering pyschopath who lived 30 years on what basically amounts to a hightech respirator and is the bitch of an Emperor who bows to his every command and was most likely moslested sometime in the prequel trilogy in a deleted scene when the emperor was still going by the name Palpetine in a Jedi/Republic scandle of galactic proportions.
Two fields which have nothing to do with what’s being discussed.
All experts based their knowledge on pass works. Steven hawking based his work off the work such as Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesla based their works from men like Benjamin Franklin.
Its how Science works. Most of scientific work is spend in research and study of pass works, not in making new theories or experimentation
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And all experts can explain logically what the f they are talking about. That’s what makes them experts.
“If you cannot explain the concept to a child you yourself do not understand it”
-Albert Einstein
(off memory the actual quote is a little different I’m too lazy to look it up)
You mean like how I said this exact thing about 24fps video, IE film standard? Funny how you missed that.
That is exactly what my argument is. As long as the input is registered before 17ms you’re fine. If it’s registered afterwards then you have a problem, you have lag.
Cool glad we can find agreement/common ground.
140ms is almost 10 frames. That’s nonsense.
Video games require faster reactions than sprint runners confirmed, because otherwise 1 frame links would be impossible, 1 frame links require 16.67ms of input response time, not 140ms.
I know I’m being a touch hard on you right now. I don’t have a problem with you as a person and I appreciate you taking the time to actually respond to the relevant discussion at hand to the best of your ability. You’re not a troll. Not now you were trolling but you’ve redeemed yourself young skywalker.
Actually, Dark, I take back that last comment…
You’re talking about reaction time, I’m talking about input time. When Jwong does Rufus’ bread and butter, he has to press HP within 1 frame of pressing LK. That’s the link. But that’s a totally seperate thing from reaction time, which is the amount of time it takes him to see and respond to his opponents attack.
If a person had reaction times of 16.67ms , they would be a gaming god, you would be a walking TAS video. 100-150ms response time, that’s fast and sounds about right. Input times on the other hand of 16.67 is the norm, that’s virtually a requirement of every SFIV player at even mid level. So they are definitely two seperate things.
Thought this over when I was at the gas station, lol. Now I’m not positive on this, because like, I’ve been playing Megaman Legacy Collection on PS4 and it has horrible, horrible input lag. Assuming it’s 2 frames which is what it feels like to me, certainly more than the PS3 version of Ultra, but the fact I can tell that means that our video game reactions are actually faster than 100ms. 2 frames is either 50ms or 33ms depending on if you’re on my side (it’s 50ms) or say using Poonage’s measuring (then it’d be 33ms). 100ms would be around 6-7 frames… Perhaps that’s what it is. Whatever the case, it’s enough to ruin the game and make flawless runs turn to shit. This whole crazy discussion has inspired me to purchase the proper equipment to do my own testing. I honestly can’t wait. Once I have precise numbers that I can scientifically prove that will help us better understand. Help me at least haha.
It’s funny dude I want to get into the hyperbolic time chamber and start going nuts training like Goku right now hahaa. It also begs the question: What are the human limits of perception, reaction? How do our eyes work? How do we perceive reality itself? Things vibrate humans matter, it’s vibrating atoms… hmm…Why does our human perception of time, why is it so unreliable? Time flies when you’re having fun, goes slow as shit when you are bored. How can two atomic clocks one taken to a high altitude and the other kept at sea level, display different times? Gravity-time-space all interelated. Gravity distorts space, space distorts time, oh my head. Hmmm hmmm hmmmmmm. How did Daigo parry justin hmm hmmm hmmmmmmmmm. Did Ancient Astronauts visit Daigo in the past and alter his genetics to make him into a gaming god, could such a thing be true? Yes. Was the Neo Geo, was the technology given to SNK from Alien visitors, clearly it was.
You are welcome, and I am glad you found a cheaper deal else where.
So couple of things that are wrong here.
You keep associating that 60fps frame time of 16.67ms with input lag.
This is not the “Does your controller lag thread” and the game engine has nothing to do with this.
This is the discussion on how video displays has a lag or delay compared to input going in.
This is an extra Xms added to your reaction time. The consoles is Xms faster than your TV. As you are waiting for Ken to move, you failed to block as you are not seeing whats happening to real time.
You are seeing what happens what ever Xms happen later. The console don’t care how slow your HDTV actually is and has its own idea when that 16.67ms frames stop and stop not what your Television is telling you.
Wrong actually, I am very sure if I had Justin Wong and Olympic Gold medalist Usain Bolt, dubbed the fastest person alive at the same reaction test Usain is most likely react faster than Justin.
Usain Bolt runs a 100m race at 9.55 seconds, you need to respond fast when you cross 100 meters in only 10 seconds.
Anyways 140ms is for the average sprint runner. At 50ms you are disqualified for having a false start. Medically it takes 70ms for the brain to send a signal to your feat. For the typical human the average reaction time is about 215ms.
Try this
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
Try the reaction test and see how fast is your own reaction time.
Now part of that time is from the input lag from your display.
I am 35 years old (as the older you get your reaction time gets worst), I got a result of 285 on the website, I minus 10ms from the known time my monitor lags for.
My time is 275ms.
1 Frame Links?
That isn’t reaction time, that is anticipation. You are trying to predict what going to happen before hand to get that 16.67ms timing down.
On the contrary, I own a Benq GW2750 monitor for several years and it is excellent doing First person shooters and Fighters all day.
Okay.
Nowwwwwww I understand.
Thank you.
I had to process, digest, and work this out for myself with other things.
Now I feel I understand.
So with that understood, then isn’t “input lag”, what we’re calling input lag, actually “refresh lag”? In other words it’s taking the display X number of MS longer to display frames, right?
And if that’s the case, then how can they claim these monitors have 60 or 120Hz refresh? Or do they but it takes x number of miliseconds for the TV to start displaying the information for some reason?
Also when we say a monitor has 17ms lag or 8ms or 10ms, how much lag does CRT technology have? Any?
-also, generally regarding this topic, one thing still puzzles me: why does my monitor, my PC monitor, the one I’m typing on, why when I play emulators, does it feel just as smooth, and just as instantaneous to me, as playing on a CRT and real NES console say? I’ll take your word for it if there is lag here vs. a CRT. I’m just curious. And also what are the typical numbers, typical lag numbers, for your run of the mill PC LCD Monitor versus say BenQ TV which is what 10ms, a really good “giant” TV which is 17ms?
Double post.
I think you’re still confusing a couple of the concepts.
Input lag is exactly what it is = console sends signal to TV --> [input lag]-number of seconds later --> image appears on screen.
Refresh rate = in 1 second, how many times can the TV replace the current screen “snapshot” with another full “snapshot”.
You can have a TV with a refresh rate of 1,000,000 Hz, meaning that it can “change” the screen’s contents one million times per second, but still have an input lag of, say 60ms. The two concepts are unrelated.
CRT technology is considered the baseline, so CRTs are said to have 0ms of input lag.
Well here’s the thing. If there’s [input lag], if it takes 17-33ms for the display to receive the images and then those images to appear on the screen, why would that only effect the initial frames and not every frame? In other words shouldn’t each and every frame displayed, then, have the same delay, and thus the display would not actually be displaying 60 images a second, it would be something like 42 images a second, 42Hz not 60Hz…? (because 16.67ms = 1 frame. 60 x 16.67 = 1000ms, 1 second. If it is delayed to 33ms, then it’s 33ms per frame which works out to be around 42Hz not 60Hz).
That is incredible.
Also, FreedomGundam, what about PC Monitors, like the one I’m typing on right now, which is a 1080P LCD.
When I play emulators of game consoles it doesn’t appear to lag. Is that just in my head? Do PC monitors have less lag than TV’s, and if so, why do we not game on PC monitors and instead opt for stuff like BenQ?
Taking it a step forward, when I move the mouse around or click on things or type words, it doesn’t appear to lag either. Is that just because I’m used to it, and that in reality it has lag beyond the 0ms of CRT? If so do you know how much a typical run of the mill, 20" or so PC monitor lags?
No because a) it doesn’t cascade like that, and b) the two concepts are not related like that.
Think of this analogy:
Usain Bolt can run at 100m in ~10 seconds, so 10m/s (analogous to Refresh Rate).
I put him on the starting line, but I tell him to start running only 2 seconds after the gun is fired (2 seconds = input delay).
The 2 seconds that I’m stalling him, and the 10m/s that he’s capable of running once he’s in top-speed, are unrelated.
Ok. That makes sense. I think I got it. Thank you.
Hey. I say we all just go back to CRT. HDTV is overrated. I can pull out a dusty old PS2 stick a DVD of Avatar in there and suddenly I’m treated to visuals which crush anything on the PS4 
You hear that guys. Head to your local flea market or side of the road, or local dump, grab up those CRT’s and we’re partying like it’s 1999.
Check this out:
.7ms input lag? Really?
Two slots below listed is the BenQ used by Evo, but 8.3ms of lag.
.7 vs. 8.3… ummm… why would they even bother with the BenQ? The .7 is only 250$, or 50$ more. Perhaps a sponsorship thing?
This is what I’m getting. I think I can handle an extra .7ms of lag over CRT, wow…
This is my current PC monitor: http://www.amazon.com/HP-2159M-21-5-Inch-LCD-Monitor/dp/B001UHOX2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1280949859&sr=8-1
5ms “response time”. Lag? That would explain why I don’t perceive it, it’s under half a frame.
I’m shocked because this PC is 6-7 years old, was just a random purchase to have something to write on. A freakin core 2 duo it’s shit, yet had a decent monitor, I lucked out.
Where do you see the input lag for that monitor?
Assuming “response time” means input lag, I don’t know if it does.
It doesn’t.
Sure whatever you say tensho.
That’s why NES games, in the megaman legacy collection I just bought, and through emulators feel CRT Smooth™ on it.
By the way, yeah turns out my big tv is a piece of laggy shit after all :/. Who knew. Shoulda tested it first. Going from 21-25ms of lag to 5ms is night and day with Megaman and Pinball Arcade is like “too fast” now. Oops.