Because manufacturers are more than happy to give you the response time and trout it as it being a “Fast Display” but they don’t want for you know now the Input Lag as no manufacturer ever posted the input lag delay times (not even Ben Q).
http://i.imgur.com/IevKs4p.png
screen shot of a Monitor specs of a PC monitor on Amazon
Note how they proud to talk about there lighting fast 1ms response time, zero lag with HDMI, absolutely nothing about the actual input lag.
I’m really not interested in marketing jargon.
Where is the thread you’re talking about? Is it in Tech because I can’t find it.
Anyways that’s complete marketing nonsense. Think about how ridiculous 1ms response time is. That’s 1/1000th of a second.
People were making fun of me because I was claiming I could detect a frame of lag which is 33ms of input lag. We’re talking about 1/33rd of that.
Even the fastest refresh rates in the world right now for monitors are 240Hz. That’s 1 quarter of 1000ms. If you could input that quickly, human or robot, you’d be 4 times faster than refresh rates that are 4 times the 60Hz standard of CRT.
If you think about that in terms of a 60FPS video game, you’d have to be able to press buttons 1000 times a second to notice that. I’d say the fastest person in the world might be able to press a button 50 times in a second, if that. So that’s nothing but ridiculous marketing.
Again, I’ll repeat myself and you can flag me again for saying it, I think that you’re upset and bringing up all this random stuff because you learned something in this thread. You of course will not acknowledge that, nor will you take on my points directly. They were clear and concise, so have at it, if you want to attack my arguments please do, after all it’s a discussion board, but posting random stuff, idk what this is supposed to be.
I was not talking about marketing Jargon but how to cut though all the jargon.
Congrats you failed.
Well first what you should of done before ever posting in Tech Talk was to
READ THE STICKIES!!!
There is a thread Sticked titled
[Info Thread: Rules, FAQs and Tutorials Inside. (READ THIS BEFORE HITTING THAT NEW THREAD BUTTON!)](Info Thread: Rules, FAQs and Tutorials Inside. (READ THIS BEFORE HITTING THAT NEW THREAD BUTTON!)
Everything that worth mentioning, guides, FAQs, Work Logs are posted there.
In there, you will find the thread titled
THE NEW DEFINITIVE HDTV LAG FAQ
Oh yes, PS:
Stop editing your post right after I posted to avoid your own embarrassment.
Its quite obvious you are editing your post the minuet I make my reply.
This is where I’m going to have to disagree with Poonage, and I’d love to talk to him, not you, you don’t represent him and frankly I have you on my ignore list for good reason, no offense, so let’s just end it there. If there’s something you’d like to argue in a civil way then I can oblige. Otherwise then we’ll just let bygones be bygones good bye have a nice day.
Anyways I’d to argue with Poonage because this statement doesn’t make much sense.
On a few levels poonage:
Why half a frame? Why not a quarter frame or an eight of a frame?
Anything under 16.67ms is no lag, because your button press is registered before the next frame of animation is even drawn on screen. Then at 17ms the frame is drawn, and then 17ms later, another frame is drawn. He’s saying that 33ms is 2 frames, no. Over 17ms is a fraction of a frame, 33ms is 1 full frame, 41 would be 1.5 frames, 49 2 full frames. It’s simple math. So he’s off by one.
If you were so quick that you could respond to a game in half of a frame, you’d be moving to quickly for the game itself, a 60Hz game. You’d be out of sync. You’d be twice as fast as the game can even display it’s animation.
I’m not saying this isn’t possible. If you practiced on a 120Hz monitor on games that ran at 120FPS and had a monitor that could resolve your inputs faster than 8ms then you could possibly train yourself to be this fast. I think of Goku or Vegeta in the training room hahaa. Anything’s possible IMO but like I said for 60FPS gaming any input under 17ms is lagless.
And poonage if you’re listening I’d love to get into it with you and we could talk about this in a friendly and cool way. I would expect you’re mature and know how to argue in a cool manner and not get upset like some members do, and I welcome that.
I’d also argue that 2 frames is highly noticeable, 1 frame is highly noticable. So I basically disagree with the entire paragraph that I’ve quoted.
To give you an easy game analogy. Take Megaman on the NES. You press forward and Megaman inches his foot forward “instantaneously”. Of course it’s not instantaneous, but our brains see it that way because the input is registered sometime prior to 17ms, every 17ms the game displays a new frame. If you could somehow have 8ms response time, which is half a frame, that means you would press forward once and megaman wouldn’t move, press it twice he moves. You could do that, you’d be pressing the button soooo fast that the game didn’t register. I was criticized for claiming that I could detect 1 frame of lag which is 33ms, for his hypothesis to be correct, you’d have to have reflexes 4 times as fast to be able to notice 8ms.
This is all simple math by the way. Now if you had a video game that was rendering at 120FPS, then that changes things, because frames are drawn twice as quickly. Suddenly a new frame is drawn every 8MS. Well in that case, then yes you would have lag if your monitor couldn’t resolve the frame in 8ms. Which most can’t. That’s just one of the reasons I personally don’t see the merits of 120fps.
I do have to point out that this 1ms response time is not about the detection, but rather the screen’s technical ability to “refresh” its own pixels. A high response time would generally lead to ghosting (because the pixels aren’t able to change fast enough), whereas a low response time would lean towards pixels being able to refresh and change to another color much more quickly.
It’s partially marketing jargon because it leads people to think that it has to do with lag and whatnot (which we all know it doesn’t), but it’s partially not marketing jargon because it’s just stating the screen’s technical capabilities.
No screen on planet earth has a refresh rate of 1000Hz, which is what would be needed for 1ms responses to result in ‘movement’.
They’re not claiming it’s the screen’s response, they’re saying the limits of the HDMI cable’s capabilities are 1ms. So when the day comes where we have 1000Hz TV’s and 1000FPS gaming, HDMI is ready.
If that’s true, on their part, then I’m impressed! But it’s irrelevant to the types of speeds we’re talking about with today’s Monitor and certainly console tech and 60FPS. We can’t even get 120FPS gaming consoles let alone 1000.
But I like this because it’s mind opening and really get’s you thinking doesn’t it!
Response time and refresh rate are not the same thing.
Response time is how fast pixels can be filled, measured in milliseconds.
Refresh rate is how many times the image on the screen can be changed in one second, measured in hertz.
Response time and refresh rate are not the same thing. Yes, of course.
I thought fill rate, which is something completely different, was in nanoseconds. You’re talking about the internal rendering of graphics that’s outside of my area of expertise.
People that just press “lol” on your comments, but have absolutely nothing to say, no logical argument to put forth to challenge the words and argument you’ve put forth, it’s the definition of trolling.
How the fuck has someone been on here for 11 years, around people who play 3s (people who I’d say are even more fussy than ST players) and be this fucking ignorant about variations in lag between set ups?
What am I ignorant about, enlighten me.
This whole thread.
Um ok if I’m wrong then simply explain logically why I am wrong. This is a discussion board after all.
Anyone can copy and paste wikipedia articles or any random source. If you cannot explain yourself and your stances logically and simply to someone then you yourself do not understand them.
I explained logically why the source Dark posted was flawed. So. I guess you have nothing to say? Ooook then. “lol” is not putting forth an argument. If anyone has any questions about what I’ve said, I can explain myself. If you understood what was being discussed here you’d be able to discuss it. Flagging or "lol"ing comments is not discussion, it’s trolling. If I’m wrong explain to me why I’m wrong. This is what message boards are for. I’d love to be wrong and I’d love to learn and expand my knowledge.
So a huge break down and recapping all the great info FreedomGundam has shared and then More information that fits into the discussion.
Response time: How fast a pixle can change or fill. Measured in Microseconds. Faster Response time means less ghosting or motion blur.
Refresh Rate: how many times the image refresh or change in one second, Measured in hertz. Hertz is how many cycles per second. NTSC standard is 60 hz, Pal is 50.
**Input Lag/ Display Lag: **The delay from input compared to the output. Example: In Super Mario Bros, its time time from when you hit that jump button til you see Mario Jump. Also measured in Microseconds.
This is always left out of the Display’s Advertised specs.
**Frames per second: ** Often incorrectly confused with Refresh rate. In a video these are the rate of animation changes in a video (referred to as a frame). Typically most movies and video are displayed at approx 24 to 30 frames per second. Frames per second (FPS) is also used as a term in gaming, how often a computer’s CPU Plus Graphics Hardware (GPU) draws a new image of animation. The “GOLD” standard for this is 60 frames per second to MATCH the Refresh rate of most displays.
**Image Post Processing: ** The additional computer processing a display does to render the image displayable on a LCD screen display.
The next few all fall under Image Post processing, all effects display lag. This does not cover all image post processing.
**DAC or Digital to Analog Conversion: ** the change or conversion from a Digital to Analog Signal and vise versa. Used to allow for digital displays to accept Analog signals. Often this is handled by a chip separate from the rest of Image Post processing. Depending how good the DAC is, would effect if you get additional input lag or not.
**Aspect Ratio: ** Refers to the dimensions of a screen or display. With Standard Definition displays most screens are 4:3 or for every 4 measurements wide the screen is only 3 measurements tall.
With Movie Cinema wide screens and HD displays you have 16:9 or Wide screen format, the image is 16 measurements wide for every 9 measurements tall.
**Scalling: ** The Process where a image is re-sized to fit a Digital display. This is for both to match the image to the resolution of the display as well as to correct for aspect ratio differences. This process is automatic and “Near Instantaneous” in Analog CRT Displays.
To make a 4:3 image fit a 16:9 screen (and vise versa) there various methods to go about this,
Stretching: The Image is stretched to fill the whole screen.
Letter Box: Black bars are added to the image to make the image fit the screen without stretching. For 4:3 images on a 16:9 display will produce 2 black bars on ether side of the screen.
Postage Stamp: Taking Letter box to the extreme by putting black around the whole image, top, bottom and sides. This has the effect of making the image seem smaller than it should be.
Zooming: the image is zoomed in, often cropping out parts of the image that extends beyond the screen.
**Interlace: ** Interlaced video is a technique of doubling the perceived frame rate without consuming extra bandwidth (this includes analog formats, even over the air), Only half the image is displayed at any one time each frame, as the image is scanned in every other scan line is skipped, on the next scan refresh the scan lines that were skipped are scanned in.
**Progressive: **The Entire image is displayed at one time,
**Deinterlacing: ** The Process of turning an image from a Interlaced to a Progressive image.
**Line Doubling: ** Another method to deinterlace a image, Every line is doubled on each frame, this does cause a side effect called image craw, where the edges of objects on screen seem to "crawl"
The process is also used to make 240p resolution images fit a 480p with little or no processing.
This only applies to TVs, Monitors, Displays and video converters/ external video processors. When a video feed is deinterlace without Line doubling you produce a visually better image but you also add 2 frames of display lag as the image processing needs both interlaced frames to compile a single progressive image.
Combing : A Visual artifact or defect from Deinterlacing. A noticeable comb-like effect is seen, especially if the video is paused.
.jpg)
- Image is from Wikipedia
Game Mode : A visual display setting in some HDTVs that tries to bypass much of the unnecessary Image Post processing to reduce Input lag/ image Display Lag.
PC Mode : Display Settings that used when a PC is connected to a HDTV, similar to Game Mode much of the image post processing is bypassed (in many displays even more so).
In Some displays to get the least amount of input lag both modes are needed.
For HDMI/DVI-D input PC mode, this works as expected. HDMI and DVI is so similar in format that many HDTVs would often consider a PC video source DVI even if the video coming from a HDMI source.
For VGA or DVI-A (DVI-A is just VGA via a DVI connector) the video input has to be processed by the DAC first. If your Display has a quality DAC there no issues. If your HDTV has a terrible DAC you will get Input lag.
Careful with going with the VGA description as it used to describe two different things. VGA stands for Video graphics Array
Thanks Dark for copy pasting more information you found from another source, but none of that contradicts what I’ve stated.
It’s not even relevant to the points I’ve made.
Anyways anyone can test my hypothesis out for themselves. Get out a stick, open up an emulator go to the input. Now get a stop watch and record your screen at the highest framerate possible. Now go crazy, press the buttons on your stick and gamepad as quickly as you possibly can. I was able to get 40 inputs to register in 1 second doing this. However I was cheating, because I was pressing 4 buttons at the same time, so really my speed limit for how fast I can press buttons is actually only 10 presses per second, far below the 60 or 16.67ms per frame.
What does this mean? It means that in order for response times of 5ms, 8ms, or anything under 17ms to matter, you’d have to be able to press buttons and react faster than 16.67, press a single button faster than 60 times per second. If a human being was watching you do this it would appear as if your finger was actually stationary. Actually if you could do 24 times a second it would, that’s film speed, and we don’t detect the flashing of film, 24Hz. For all the flack I took for being able to notice response lag of 33ms, for those who are saying I’m wrong now, are now arguing that they can sense inputs 10 times faster than I can. Which is literally DragonBall Z Super Saiyen god level. I’m not kidding. If you can get 60 single button presses to register in 1 second, that’s ungodly, the controller would start smoking and melt lol. But we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about 8ms, in which case, you’d need to be able to press a button 120 times in 1 second for such a speed to matter, and even then, you’re going faster than the screen itself can draw it’s next frame anyways.
Anything is possible but that’s pushing it. Response time and Refresh rate are not the same, but they are directly related as far as video gaming is concerned. Even if you were Goku, and you could press a button 30 times in 16.67 seconds, 29 of your presses would not register **because you are going faster than the next frame can even be displayed on the display itself. ** That speed works out to be 1800 button presses per second. It’s an absurd notion.
Considering a few days ago you acted like you never heard of any of those terms before.
And when I tried to explain you them the first time, in the other thread you were lost.
When and how?
All you prove is you are a ignorant, obsitant, conceit scrub who think he is special because of his “Joined Date” who wanted only to confirm your own bias and have you Ego stroked.
You use bad math and cherry pick misinterpreted information to only feed your own ego.
You want to get stroked, find a prostitute.
Insults. Nice. How about you disect my posts, tell me what is wrong about them, what I stated that you know better, and explain to me. That’s what message boards are about. That’s what discussions are.
Look I know you’re not going to because you can’t. This is why you’re on my ignore list. All I’m trying to do is have a discussion. A discussion is a back and forth, we discuss things. Here, I put forward things, and you apparently don’t read them, because you’re just, instead of arguing or picking apart my points and putting counter points like in any good discussion, instead you just copy paste things from other places that have nothing to do with the arguments I’m saying.
It’s like you’re a robot. You really do your avatar justice. And I don’t think you’re an expert. Experts understand and can logically explain their knowledge, copy and pasting other peoples stuff is not being an expert anyone can do that. You have not displayed to me that you have any original thought or actually understand and can explain these concepts in logical terms, therefor you are not an expert, and I really hope that an expert does come along so I can actually discuss things with them. One that has respect and doesn’t throw misguided insults at people. If you actually discussed things civilly I wouldn’t have a problem with you. You don’t.
Do you think Darth Vader is a robot? Are you sure you have this guy on ignore? You seem to respond to every post of his.
Seriously though, you think Darth Vader is a robot?
Different market, yes it would be great for FGC members practicing at home but it could also be marketed to the COD, Halo, Gears, FGC wanna-bes, online warriors, etc. Not to mention all the nutsos who buy insane setups for picture and sound would now have this additional stat shoved at them. FGC would really just be the tip of the iceberg.
Every single game benefits from low input lag, would really be the core message of the thing.
And the TVs would purposefully lack a lot of features which I feel would make them a lot cheaper. It would literally just be a screen with component in, HDMI in and VGA in that simply displayed it in full RGB with very few options.
While I’m not a Star Wars nerd, and I don’t give a crap about the movies except the first 3, you know, the good ones, yes I’m aware Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker who is burnt to a crisp. “He’s more machine now than man.”
Anyways well, it’s been hours since, days actually since I put forth my argument about input responses not mattering below 17ms, if someone actually can put forth a logical argument on why I am wrong, and wants to discuss it, I am more than welcome to discuss that. I welcome being wrong because that means I can learn or expand my knowledge, and I understand the true experts of SRK cannot be at my beckon call, so it’s all good, should that happen I’m more than happy to have an actual discussion with someone instead of being trolled by an amateur.
Should Poonage, who seems to be an actual expert come along, poonage I respectfully disagreed with your conclusions and premise, I made it very clear what I disagreed with in your post, and I would love to discuss it with you in a friendly manner. I’ll check in from time to time and the invitation is open to anyone who actually has something to say.
Already did, several times.
Then why are you arguing with me and saying I am Wrong multiple times.
Then why are you still replying?
Thank you.
Also thank you.
Yes, I did not go to school for Broadcast and video technology and have a BA in Broadcasting.
My background is in mechanics.
All experts based their knowledge on pass works. Steven hawking based his work off the work such as Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesla based their works from men like Benjamin Franklin.
Its how Science works. Most of scientific work is spend in research and study of pass works, not in making new theories or experimentation
This thing going on about
That not how it works. the time 1 frame in NTSC standard refresh rate in milliseconds 16.67ms has nothing to do with display lag.
The 16.67ms is how often a new frame of animation appears in a video for 60 fps or 60 hz refresh rate. Keep in mind many video sources operate at a slower 30fps.
The concept of input lag is the difference between the time the input is sent compared to that time the output is received. That the time the display processed said image before that image is shown on the display.
The 16.67ms long animation frames have nothing to do with input lag. Its when that delay is 16.67ms or more it becomes problematic. Everything lags, you controller lags, you console lags, your display lags, your eye balls lag and your brain lags. The whole idea of sub-1 frame dislpay lag is to shorten that chain.
Because human reaction speed is not that fast. Justin Wong is not that fast. Usain Bolt can’t even respond to Starting pistol that fast, 140ms is the average reaction time for sprint runners.