It’s just good to know. All options off of cl. hk are gonna have varying degrees of maintaining/giving up pressure on block and payoff on hit (nemo string still has the higher damage and stun payoff so if I legitimately think I’m beating a crouch tech I’d go for it to get the FAT damage).
You can cover it with LLs and be safer, but pushed farther back if blocked. It’s up to you. It just stood out to me why Daigo immediately went for that reversal and you mentioning that you go for it more often reminded me of that. That’s just a particular quirk in the shoto matchup where it’s riskier to be going for that in this mashy world.
And good players who don’t rely on frame data don’t necessarily need it just to figure out it’s a punish. A good Ryu could just be looking for the (now common) nemo string and know that he can reversal DP in between that point, so he DPs anyway whether you do the HSU or not and you still take damage and he catches on that you can’t do that. Now he knows two punishes. But you also know the bait, so you can potentially bait it and make him think twice about reversal. Mindgames.
gouki`s vortex is beyond mindgames for whatever reason.
i havent played diago btw, but i do know that cl.hk xx HSU its not safe against anyone. it loses to FA and EX bs in between.
and even then some characters like crouching guile sometimes HSU wont link properly from CH cl.hk just because he is weird when you force him to stand.
cl.hk is the only good normal for frame traps that chun has, if you are suggesting not to use it, then what? how are you supposed to be on the offensive if the only tool you can use is “punishable by diago”.
cr.mk doesnt cut it, too much pushback on that move and +6 is just not good for anything decent.
cl.mp is just garbage for frame traps. period. And cl.hp is negative on hit, useless aside from trade OS and even then cl.hk is way better.
so what`s left? oh yes cr.lp delayed strings for a pitiful damage. good luck with that.
I didn’t say don’t use it at all, ever. I said it’s a no-go against shoto players that know what’s up (a.k.a good ones who happen to know about that. Not just Daigo). What’s left for you IF they know how to punish (or the fact that you’re losing pressure because you’re negative on block anyway vs. anyone) is to mix it up. Cl. hk xx legs is still another frame trap option that’s safe and pays off on hit (linked into a light + follow up or can be FADC’d into bigger damage and stun). Like I said it’s up to you. No option is completely devoid of risk but knowing when someone can deal with it and take you out of your comfort zone is when you should try other approaches.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the Nemo trap cancelling the cs.rh into Hasanshu? In that even it doesn’t matter that it’s -3 on block. What does matter is that Hasanshu is extremely vulnerable. Not just a shoto, any character with a move that will come out in time that beats Hasanshu can use it to punish her. So if your opponent is pretty sure that’s what you’re going for they can just throw it out and beat you. I think I’ve had my Nemo frame trap attempts beaten by Cody EX Tornado, Balrog headbutt, etc.
I don’t use it as much because the players here seem to all know it and have answers for it.
Man, this is like the most concise post about how I feel like high level Chun play would possibly be. I always think of her best style being staying at a “edge of the danger zone” space a little bit outside the character’s best range (their best poke or whatever). A place where you can use your (usually superior) walk speed to force yourself to stay in that zone but being able to stop them from walking you back so hard with your pokes. In this range you ideally can react to their aggressiveness and what not. You can condition your opponent for some walk up pressure (usually throw or some light into ex legs) or diffuse their aggression by standing at a spot where your anti-airs are most likely to hit. Example being Guile where you stand outside the range of spinning backfist and reacting to anything he does whether it be jumping, fireballs, pokes, or walking towards/back.
Chun can’t afford extended turtling like a Guile can because pressure from the air will usually overwhelm her as she doesn’t have great reaction anti-airs from every angle similar to Claw and to a lesser degree Dictator. At the same time her offense is bursty but not scary, she can confirm lights into a fierce, confirm into a soft knockdown via ex legs, or simply tick throw. Given the many options of the game, its not all that fearsome for extended offense cause her frame traps are unreliable due to them being stuck on proximity normals and you can’t confrim them cause the counterhit cause you have to cancel into a special to get any real reward from it (legs or hazanshu).
I do think Chun can rise as more of a force as players get better at hitting legs loop for punishment (I’m seeing more people do this) and able to skirt that danger zone that every character has but is harder to exploit on some (rufus and viper for example). In the end its going to come down to how much you know about every character’s range since you don’t really have a default gameplan for matchups like a lot of characters have. Chun in my humble opinion is a test of enemy character knowledge than setup knowledge more so than any character in the game.
Disclaimer my Chun is mediocre to average but those are the thoughts I have after playing her so much. I’m probably just piggybacking wii’s post way too much but it shares a lot of my sentiments on the character. Hope my rambling made some sense. heh
The gap between hsu can be hit when people are ready to react to it, but it’s perfectly safe on block and that gap is pretty small which is why it can still get some use.
Mal, you said you use standalone cl.hk CH confirm and, being a matchup thread, I brought up a matchup where the situation is riskier because of a guaranteed punish and other things that can be brought into that situation. That’s it. That’s just information to to play with.
Also when blocked you lose your pressure moving forward vs. anyone anyway because it’s a disadvantaged move. Sure not everyone knows that nor does it render it useless but it’s definitely not a do it and forget it kind of frametrap either.
You play in Filipino arcades, so as pointed out above, you’re basically playing a completely different game to most online players who post here now. There is a middle-ground between turtle and rush lol
Of course you need to take care with pokes and zoning v. 360 chars, but against Honda, you need to take the fight to him much more, and that hasn’t changed since ST. You know in that game, in Japan, they call Bison/Dic a gambler character, because of how he has to take great risks for great rewards… well, that’s pretty much what Cap have given us now with Chun in SFIV.
I personally think constantly walking back Chuns are horrible, but if that’s how you play your Chun to be the next champ in those no-doubt intense arcade environments, then for sure, that’s totally subscribing to the full Sirlin P2W scripture, I can see that.
Ideally, you do want to find the middle ground, but against characters with an obvious hp and damage edge, surely you want to ease up and play it lame.
The problem with the Necrovortex is that Chun isn’t really a vortex character. Ken’s rh HK puts him in the opponent’s face at -1, but ultimately this works better for him than Chun’s rh SBK despite her being at 0 and having more mixup options. The reason why is simple - Ken has one option that pretty much shuts down everything his opponent tries to do, and that’s DP. Try to tech, throw, push a button, or even just backdash out of there and DP tags you. You have to respect the DP. Ken might not throw it - he could throw or go for low pressure or whatever, but regardless you have to respect it.
Most vortex characters revolve around this simple concept. When Cammy is in your face you don’t want to press buttons because of her awesome and painful frame traps, or even just EX TKCS. You have to respect her options and be very specific about how you get out of the situation.
Chun has nothing that has to be respected. In fact the situation works in reverse - she has options but all of them require fairly specific reads. Plus she has to respect her opponent’s options. If I rh SBK Ken I have to be careful of him throwing out DP as an answer to whatever I try to do next. Against a character with poor defensive options - like Makoto I can be more aggressive, but if she decides to do something random like U1 and I was pressing buttons Chun is going to eat it. Random ultra is random but in these cases its more or less a choice of “will my opponent press buttons? Yes or no?” More or less a 50/50.
Chun just has problems fighting up close because then her opponents random defensive options pretty much become 50/50, where Chun is still looking for a specific read. She needs to protect a bit of distance to make that random reversal far more risky. Chun’s walk/dash speed and normals are good enough so that she doesn’t need to constantly be in someone’s face, she can dart in and out as necessary. Hit and run.
Akuma sometimes uses his vortex against people who have good reversals, and he whiffs palm just to make them uppercut.
Its just a guess that it will work, at best, its a read based on how the opponent reacts to things. Same thing with the stomp mixups. Its typically a good idea to just throw it out once and see how they react, if they have nothing to stop it, you can usually end a match in like 5 seconds. Not to mention the necrovortex really blows up sim players.
The necrovortex is good for high low mixups, its not really about the head stop and the cross up, its more or less about what you plan on doing afterwards. the only benefit to the stomp is that it forces people to block high which allows low hits or a few extra overheads that they didnt anticipate. One area where chun shines better than anyone imo is her high/low game, and this works for the most part
also, on rufus, you dont have to cross up, you can easily stay on the front, so if he expects a cross up, you can hit him with jumping fierce into whatever
Is the Blanka matchup just a matter of knowing the setups? I don’t get to play many Blanka players so I was having a lot of trouble against players I know are not better than I am, he just knew a lot of really ambiguous setups so I was kept confused.
Also the proper punishes to his balls, and dealing with his troll hitbox. (c.mk EX legs or c. lk, c. lp, c. m EX legs because the standard short short legs doesn’t work). And you can’t reliably fb him because of the threat of slide and EX ball.
The Blanka match is one of who can out-lame the other. It can be difficult for Chun to open him up if he sits down on a life lead. She can’t Kikoken him at all and she’s got to move forward, losing charge. As long as he crouches she can’t hit EX Legs combos on him so he mainly just needs to avoid getting thrown. If Chun has the life lead and meter she can counter-lame him by sitting down and forcing him to do something. U1 punishes much of what he can try to do and EX SBK works well against him. Round 1 starts advantage Blanka. He has lots of tricks and gimmicks to steal away vitality, especially when Chun has no meter. She has to fight to not fall behind. They are tricks, but combine that with the difficulty of opening up down-back Blanka and it’s enough to frustrate her.
That last link is more like committing than confirming because you really only have one jab to stay that close and get the link instead of whiffing far st. hk on crouching opponents (the main reason I don’t go for it that often as a link). It’s an excellent frametrap starter but an iffy link since you can’t confirm it imo.
The 1st two are pretty good though. The difference between cl. lk and far lk as opposed to cl. hk and far hk is way less risky. Blanka eats 4 hits of EX Legs too so the payoff isn’t too bad.