idk why are you thinking that ppl is playing her defensively, im not btw
and i have tons of hours trying to find something related to unblockables, but our cross up is useless
I think most of the Fellowship probably don’t play flowchart Chun. Anytime I run into a Chun online or at the arcade though, 99% of the time they’re going to start the match with walk-back Kikoken. Even watching the Chun player who got top 8 (?) at the 25th anniversary tournament, he started the fight against Cody playing defensive zoning and I pretty much knew he was going to lose. Even taking part in the tiering thread most discussions about Chun started with “well, she can zone him out…”
v2012 is all about good pressure offense, and it’s here where Chun’s shortcomings start to show. She does have a lot of offensive options, but none that lead to great damage and none that are tight. I’d rate her frame trap ability on the poor side. You really have to be specific in how you defeat your opponent’s defense.
I really feel like she needs to utilize c.hp x LL blockstrings more. Like Honda hands or Gen fingers. Take chip and force the opponent to want to do something. If you’re sure your opponent is going to block, do lk LL which gives her a nice +2 on block. Even hk LL is -1 which isn’t too bad and Chun does have things she can do from there.
I had the same feeling as you did, especially after seeing the effectiveness of Chun’s st.MP xx Legs as an offensive tool in SFxT. But her cr.HP only hits from really close and trying to use st.MP xx Legs in SF4 is a lot harder than I anticipated.
I think you’re right about needing to be more offensive though.
I had a chance to try a few things out. LL isn’t that great of a set-up into frame traps. Shocker, I know. =P Too much pushback + not enough options that work. Against standing opponents she can do cs.mp (both hits) xx lk LL, fp for simple 220 damage. Against crouchers she can do cs.rh xx lk LL, fp for 240. Or in either case, link c.mk xx EX LL. Not bad but nothing that’s really going to up her offensive game.
Necrovortex of Doom.
Even when you’re hit out of it, you can still set up a nice nonex sbk off of cr.mk, and that has pretty decent damage, not to mention all the high low mixups that come from it
(i am proudly the most gimmicky chun in the world)
Non-EX SBK isn’t really worth it, let it go.
My bad, going to work on it. Do you have time to help out with my vids?
Its alright. Being that this game is largely about vortex and other forms of shenanigans, I think its high time we as chun players get over the “always play as safe as possible” attitude that never worked for this character in the first place. You have to take risk in this game. All shenanigans, vortex included are all risky.
With non ex sbk you can either do ex sbk after which beats most dps or you can follow up with a head stomp which leads to further mixups. There definitely is reason to utilize it
I think Chun needs to play hit and run. Her offense is by no means airtight so if you’re too aggro you will eat a reversal. The damage is one thing, but it shifts the momentum against her and now she has to be defensive. Which is why people play her zoning in the first place - they don’t want to be put on her back and have to deal with dive kick shenanigans, frame traps, and other mixups. Right now my play style is a little too aggro I think, so I need to learn how to back off. Get in, do damage, get out. Force your opponent to make mistakes.
Although against characters with poor reversal options, I’ll go full aggro until they give me a reason not to. =P
Thinking about what I posted earlier, I think I’m going to start using cs.rh xx lk LL more as a frame trap. It’s safer than the Nemo frame trap because if you do the Hasanshu and your opponent knows its coming they can react to it. So that plus c.hp xx rh LL. Follow-ups…have to get unconventional. b+mk, Kikoken, Hasanshu are all interesting options. Then if your opponent is convinced you’re going to do something after LL, do nothing and try to punish a mistake.
I’ll try…maybe sometime in December? Right now is a bit hectic, sorry.
i do not use nemo frame trap that often, i use confirm the CH cl.hk into cr.lp BnB or cr.lk Bnb into super/ultra.
deff hit and run is viable
and sorry but necrovortex is just not cool
I still use regular sbk from a jump in over Live. Seems like there’s a whole class of player on there who can’t deal with blocking a double air attack, if they haven’t popped their dragon quick enough. I like the mix-up sbk gives you as well. If you then go into low short xx ex legs, you know next time, they will hit buttons after sbk ends, so just block and punish. Cross-over (what used to be neckbreaker) is totally legit as well. Again, great mix-up device (throw/lk entry).
Turtle Chuns deserve to lose.
Online is a whole different monster, imo there’s a lot more prediction than reaction involved in online because of lag issues and problems with SF4’s netcode, so yes double-air attacks do cause problems for a lot of people online because it’s harder to react to and to block. Offline is a different story.
Also I dunno if I’d go as far as to say that turtle Chun players deserve to lose. There are many merits to playing a defensive Chun and, if done well, it can be quite frustrating. It’s just hard to do it well.
yes it is
imo Chun can’t be played “rushdown” at a high level, not in the traditional sense of the word, she’s just not built to do it her toolset isn’t based around that tactic nor is she a set ups based character. To suggest that there are lots of set ups and gimmicks (err “vortex’s” etc…) that haven’t been found is imo silly and a little disrespectful to both the high level Chun’s that are about (I disagree with Az in terms of very good Chun’s repping her, there are a few but that’s a different issue) and some of the Chun’s on here that invest a lot of time into her.
Everything she has and can do that would be considered “rushdown” has high risk attached to it with a fairly low reward for that risk (in comparison to many other characters). For one she has nothing practical that ends with a hard knockdown from any of her light attacks, so her hit confirms from these can never offer her the wide choice of options other cast members enjoy. With her floaty jump and the range and type of normals she has her mix up game will always be sub standard to a lot of the cast.
Her legs pressure is ok, in fact its very good and I build a lot of my offence around that, its safe but she is never really at advantage in a meaningful way with it on block. imo the best way to play her is as a pressure character, not really aggressively nor totally turtle (which btw is a legit way to play her and to suggest turtle Chun’s deserve to lose just points out to me a lack of appreciation in the level of skill consistently required to do this well. Backing yourself to be able to out space and out footsie your opponent as well as zone, AA and handle pressure without cracking against everyone you play over the duration of a tourney/session or even a single game takes great skill and a great understanding of not just the games fundamentals but the entires casts options and hers in every given situation, anyway).
I feel Chun is at her best when she simply holds her ground, her normals if used right are very intimidating and that combined with her walk speed allow her to control a bubble of the play area around her and then get in apply pressure/damage and get out again. If you look at what Chun is good at, she’s good at taking other characters options away from them. She has the tools to punish most things (on block or whiff) and therefore keep herself in most match ups. She build meter fast, has decent chip pressure (its just not sustained pressure) and can really hurt characters for wrong choices.
She can’t go crazy mental nor does she have the seth/ibuki/cammy comeback factor and she can’t afford to be knocked down often imo, she has no vortex as headstomps aren’t a vortex as its EASILY escapable even on hit, she has very few unblockables and as far as i know no meaty unblockables so the few (and so far it is only a few) she has can be easily dealt with. Shes a solid character who can do everything averagely but excels in no one area and so imo must be played in that way, you have to be flexible with your gameplan for her, she’s a reactionary character and not a patterned set up one.
She can get decent damage and if you’re willing to spend super she does have a reset that practically wins a round for you and she has a wealth of tools so use them all I say and don’t try to turn her into something she’s not. Just to be clear to people here that either haven’t seen my vids or know me really I don’t play her “lame” I try my best to express myself I also have the chance to play a lot of the decent/better players in my region and I do enter tourneys (at which I have an acceptable if very varied record for lol) so its not like I’m a flowchart player or don’t understand her, hence the fact I know she can easily get blown up if you press too hard with her…
Anyway that’s my input
Okay, then. Share your fantastic secrets on how you can rush down Zangief/Hawk/Honda and get away with it.
It looks like you have vacant time now. Could you please watch my old vids in the PM’s now? I would really like the help, because right now I do not get to play as often as I want, so I need to learn through other means for the time being.
Please? Just even one vid a day? I’m really hard on my luck when it comes to help.
Yes, it is relatively easy to get out of that stuff. However, there are options in every situation that ive encountered.
If the opponent fadcs away:
Hazanshu, sweep, cr.mk or block (if you think youll eat a reversal)
if they hit you, you are pretty much in a similar situation as if they never hit you in the first place which means:
stomp, cross up into hazanshu
stomp,cross up into another stomp (which repeats the pattern)
stomp,cross up into cr.mk into sbk
stomp,crossup into cr.lk x2 ex legs
stomp,crossup into cr.mk lk hazashu
stomp,cross up into block (if you think youll eat a reversal)
stomp,cross up into ex legs (for crouch techers)
im not saying this is to go to tactic for chun, but it definitely catches people off guard, and getting hit in the middle isnt that scary assuming it isnt a DP, because you often end up in a situation where you can still continue whatever setup you were going for, and if it isnt a DP, its just a normal in most situations. Like with all gimmicks you have to use them wisely after reading an opponent. Akuma players still use the demon flip on Ryu, afterall, and if you go on paper alone, Akuma really shouldnt use it in that match, aside from very specific setups.
This tactic works pretty well against characters who dont have good reversals. Overall, I probably use this setup once per match, usually at the end when I want to finish someone off. But also, there are a lot of people who dont know what to do against this, and if you think that doesnt matter you’re crazy. You need to play the player just as much as the character.
also if you hit the stomp low enough, youll stay in the front of them (im not sure if this is character dependent, i havent been playing much lately) which means, if theyre blindly going for a DP on the other side, theyre going to whiff a normal (in ryus case, most likely cr. hp)
Basically I agree with everything Wii said. Chun’s offensive options aren’t good enough to try and vortex anyone. Her defense isn’t good enough to reliably keep people out for the whole round (exceptions - Gief/Hawk/Honda). So take the best parts of both and merge that into a playstyle. Hit and run.
I believe in hit and run as well, this is just one other option I choose to use when the situation is right. Theres a decent amount of setups there, and ones I didnt mention that can lead to damage, and its useful. I said that it isnt a goto tactic for a reason, just like an Akuma player doesnt demon flip all day. The thing that defines the top tier characters are options above anything else.
Against shotos, standalone cl. hk is a no-go if they know what’s up (cl. hk is -3 on block). One the first things Daigo did against Shizza at evo 2010 when he went for the cl. HK xx mk. HSU frame trap was reversal DP. The only way to bait that is hk HSU instead, which is entirely a read and obviously not safe if they do nothing.
then what? you just dont do anything?
it is -3 but NOT every character in this fugly game can punish it. And even then not every shoto knows that cl.hk is in fact -3, ask valle.