I agree with you ! but in my opinion the startup is useless.
People can fake a fireball easily and mess with you.
So i start to wondering “what happen if i react to the projectile instead of react to the startup motion ?”.
And i did this list ^^
Deejay’s far hp = startup of slasher. He do exactly the same motion.
Another good example is Cody. 29 frames of startup for bad stone but in reality you cannot react until he launch his stone.
Dhalsim can fake fireball with back hp;
PS : Perhaps react to the sound can be an answer in some case if the sound appear before the projectile
I remember Dime telling me this a while back. In terms of total frames, a higher percentage of those are in start-up for Gouken than other characters.
I think it makes it more difficult(although not as hard as Guile), to Ultra it. The fireball image(blue plasma) is a green light in my mind. The character moving his hand back could be any move, and isn’t as obvious as a mental confirm.
Can someone elaborate on anti-airing Gief? The first post kinda confuses me. J.mk leading to a juggle? Does he mean headstomps? Even then I’m still kinda like… wut. My sweep was getting jump fierced. Didn’t try standing or jumping fierce though.
df + lk beats out most of Gief’s jump ins. Space it right though, because if he empty jumps it, and makes your flip kick whiff, he can spd you. Because you are also considered airborne, this is susceptible to ultra 2 if he anticipates it. S.Fierce is also not a bad option from a further range. If you can, try and meet him in the air and target combo (double fierce) juggle him.
Since we are on the subject of Cody I am having a hell of a time fighting him, im starting to disagree with the post about Chun Li can out poke him. Perhaps but Cody is a freakin wall. I can’t zone him at all. He’s like a Balrog, Dhalsim and Chun Li mixed in one.
If I jump him he b-mp anti air or even worst EX Zoink Knuckle
If I approach him he Rufian kicks me, fear of the lk version forces me to db all the time.
If I Sit back I have to dodge Rocks all day.
If I knock him down I get dirt in my face to keep from pressuring him.
If He gets me in the corner his block strings is almost as bad if not worst than Dudlys and I may not have meter.
His neutral jump FP stops my wake ups and shenannigains
Basically he’s a big ass wall of annoying. If I can find an approach to get inside and read him right. I mean does every punish have to be Hosenka, what are some good normal punishes that dont’ require EX meter? how should I zone, what should I look for when he approaches me. Frame data, anything…I think you guys get the picture, please help because he is driving me up the freakin wall. i will be so greatful.
My best advice is to pursue him when he has very little meter, and to always keep at least one stock of meter handy for EX SBK to get him off you or to keep him honest.
Keep in mind also that if you pick Ultra 1, you can Reversal Ultra punish EVERY SPECIAL on block except LP Criminal Upper. This means you can also Sweep every special except LP Criminal Upper on block, provided you are in range. Far MP or Far HP will also work.
It’s poorly recorded but here are some vids with a Chun vs Gief
It’s actually Ricky O (CH) vs Vance (ZA) grand finals at NCR.
Again the quality is bad…and I move around a lot…but Ricky does anti air a lot in these vids.
Part 1 [media=youtube]QryxUFqE8EE[/media]
Part 2 [media=youtube]4W5e8MQyFN4[/media]
I don’t play any good Cody’s but from what I’ve experienced, Cody isn’t that hard to pressure on wake up if you get an untechable knockdown. He can’t throw dirt if it’s an untechable knockdown correct? Anyways, and without ex meter, I don’t think he has any good reversal.
So this is just me theory fighting, but if you got the early lead (maybe get a knockdown via footsies, and then succeed with some sort of mix-up) I would just turtle, or play a more defensive footsie game. For example, after you get the lead, just control space by walking back and forth, but don’t press any buttons, this way it’ll bait out a zonk knuckle which you can punish I believe and/or a ruffian kick. And if he jumps, obviously AA exlegs.
This is sort of how I go about all matches against offensive based characters. With obvious adjustments to each one.
I can be completely wrong though. Again, I’m just theory fighting.
OH. And if you have the lead, and he’s pressuring you, if you even think he might be going for a frame trap, don’t press buttons. It’s much better to take the throw IMO. That and mix up stand blocking and teching, so if you can throw him out of the startup of his next move and/or just walk away and avoid it entirely.
And for Lp criminal upper, Reversal EX Legs. This can also be applied to any other special besides bad stone.
As long as you can get in, combined with Ultra 1, you can keep him honest with stuff like this.
-Hasanshu beats his bad-spray on wakeup.
Interesting tidbit: Back when this game was still fairly new, my friend started using fake stones to mess up my ultra punish timing. I eventually said “fuck it” and decided to activate on the startup instead of waiting for the stones to be thrown. It works even on fake stones! I did this a couple of times just to make sure. It only works from about 2/3 screen distance. I pre-buffered the motion along with his stone throwing pattern so that regardless of if he was throwing a fake or not, I would ultra because he was still “committing” to making me deal with stone mindgames. It’s kind of like punishing Guile’s SBs.
'Just tried it again in training mode. It’s a bit harder to punish than Guile’s SBs but still do-able. It is by no means on the same level as Viper’s Seismo Feint cancel.
Regarding frametraps/tick attempts: EX SBK beats them but obviously loses to baits. Still it’s very good against opponents who are frametrap-centric. Get a good read on that type of playstyle and it’ll throw your opponent off a lot on offense. I’m trusting that people already know better than to EX SBK all the time, but unfortunately I see people hold back from using it at all as a result. That can hurt a bit vs certain people while on defense.
During frame traps is when it’s least expected (because mentally… they’re not actually going for a 50/50 mixup), until you’ve done it about twice already so keep that in mind.
The best mindfuck imo is when they eat EX SBK twice and THEN try to bait it the 3rd time only to watch you get away because you didn’t EX SBK.
That’s true – I was looking at Cody’s frame data after having that discussion on Cody, and the fake stone has much longer startup than the regular stone throw, so if you see him pick up a stone and your reactions are good enough, Ultra that shit.
if any of the hands are whiffing you can punish with sweep I believe, it’s impossible to “lock down” with honda since hands push him so far back, at most he’ll chip you once or twice and then you can poke/fireball or whatever to push him farther back.
there’s a gap between c.lp and hands so you can EX SBK through it (risky!)
edit: super punishes s.hk on hit(broken!) so always keep super stocked in this fight and use meterless combos such as low shortx2 > low jab > s.hp to save meter.
I’m planning on a huge revision to the OP. Going to remove the paragraph format and change it to quick bulleted points for readability and make add character specific sections for antiairs and preferred pokes (as has been requested a lot).
Is it possible to df+LK Blanka out of his Blanka Ball on reaction?
Smart Blanka players don’t do the horizontal ball if Chun has Ultra 1, but I feel like if Chun uses U2 it has the potential to psych Blanka players out and make them think they are safe… if df+LK works on reaction it might be a way to punish that mistake in judgment.
I am in no way saying people should use U2 against Blanka, I am just thinking out loud.
First off, this is a really cool thread, thanks to everyone who’s supplied tips.
The matchup I seem to be having most trouble with is Ken - I’m having trouble both punishing his jumpins (usually j.HK or j.LK) and countering his HK sweeps - in the latter case it feels like there’s something in my footsies arsenal that should beat his c.HK clean but I’m not finding it.
Admittedly the Ken I’m playing on a fairly regular basis at mid-level play is pretty good at footsies, but I’m having trouble countering him without using meter all the time.
If he jumps in, cr.MP, df+LK and cr.MK will beat him clean. Each move has slightly different timing so you may want to mess around in Training and figure that out.
Personally I prefer cr.MP if he’s far and df+LK if he’s close. Sometimes cr.MK will cause a jump-in to whiff, and I just don’t like using it as a dodge button, although a lot of people like to make jumpins whiff with cr.MK and then throw, which is a viable tactic.
Regarding the sweep, that is a little heavier on the Theory Fighter, which isn’t an area I’m good at. There are a lot of moves which technically can beat Ken’s sweep but no smart Ken player is just going to walk around trying to sweep you. I have trouble adapting to that too (unless I have Super), so I don’t know how to help you.
Vs Ken I quite like cr.Fierce as an AA (at the right distance as I don’y like using cr.mk against anyone), I’ve found it very reliable against him plus you can cancel into kikoken if you have charge… Also cr.Fierce beat air Tatsu from the same range it beat jump ins so if he mixes up with that you’re still safe…
