Balrog's 'What went wrong' and 'Critique' video thread

foxisquick · April 20, 2009, 10:14pm

yeah i wish i was home, but you’re looking at the c.LP one having the ultra hit on the 5th attack so it’s gonna have a larger % reduction then on the c.MP which i think 3rd hit is a 90% scale?

so headbutt in the c.MP string is a 100%, then ultra 90%… then the c.LP both headbutt and ultra are gonna be at more then a 90% scale.

Seaper · April 21, 2009, 6:07am

Jumping mp can stop vega in the air

koroshiya8 · April 21, 2009, 7:36am

Ephemeral:

Vega: has NO invincibility attack. If you keep jumping in at him, he cannot retaliate. Just score a knockdown and you can just keep doing high low overhead mixups til he die (vega needs a down charge to live, so overheads are just a godsent)

His only form of AA is scarlet terror, and it sucks!

Guile: you cannot ex dash punch to punish sonic booms unless its psychic. you should do it if hes not crouching. Personally i can read whether someone has a down charge or not. However, experienced guiles will never do flash kicks unless they needed the invincibility. his c.hp is pretty beast on top of sonic boom pressures. His 2 hit rh is easily punishable with EXOH on the 2nd hit linked with c.mp xx HB. You cannot jump-in on half decent guiles so its another jab hit confirm pressuring until he does something stupid. Watch his meter and stay very close to him. they like to bait ex punches then punish with ex booms themselves.

Go over the fundamentals of executions first. after you get your executions down, then read up on ex kara and mind games thread. and during this period, know your enemies. execution is very very important in rog’s play.

Earlier i also posted my failure against VEGA but surprisingly i was able to beat one last night quite effortlessly and his BP doesnt suggest he is a srub. Thanks to all the earlier advice.

koroshiya8 · April 21, 2009, 7:45am

Advanced Balrog (Boxer) Mind Games + Tricks

some rog notes:

[LIST]
[] c.lp c.lp c.lk is not a good block string against shotos/giefs that has stuff with 5 frame startups. (SRK/SPD)
[] c.lp c.lp c.mp is better, because c.lp x 2 will push you so far away and c.mp will stuff a button mash attempt on the other side whether its a throw or a jab mash.
[] c.lp st.lp c.hk is a very sweet block string + setup for overhead punches. (c.lp, st.lp, OHP)
[] c.lp c.lp c.lk xx dash straight is a good string + chip for non-shotos. it also allows SADC after the dash punch for throw/c.lp
[] c.lp c.lp c.lk must be inputted via a link if you hit them on the side you didnt initially charge. if you link them slowly, the 3 hits will buffer a headbutt or dash straight definitely (i tried to SADC c.lp and the slow input allows another string to connect)
[] c.mk, c.hk is a 1f link, but it ensures a untechable knockdown from a very safe poke.
[] dash punch usages should be hit confirmed with a c.lp or c.mp. as safe as they are you are vulnerable to fireballs, low pokes, and many shenanigans that leads to you losing life in stupid means.
[] c.lp (c.lp) st.lp c.hk is the best non-charge pressure string which allows you to push your opponent into the wall with no charge.
[] Finding rog’s sweet spot for jump-ins is essential to success. ugly jump-ins will definitely get punished. Also, dont jump when opponent has ultra meter. most of time you’ll regret it.
[]Jump-in of choice is J.HP. stuffs srks at the right range.
[] dont make mashing c.lp a habit against shotos. (trust me)
[] c.lp x 2 can cancel into anything. (dash low smash + dash sweep)
[] Overhead punch isn’t only for smacking crouchers. Use it to go through fireballs, pokes, whatever. it makes them harder to anticipate.
[] TAPs are unsafe outside a level 1. Meaty Lv1 taps can be linked to c.lp.
[] c.mk and st.hk are great pokes at max range.
[] st.hp is best used against jab/short mashing crouchers at max range. shuts them up good.
[] walking forward is more intimidating than dashes or a charging rog.
[] rog’s strengths is not connecting ultra, but his up down mixups. refrain from wanting to use ultra in dire straits because you believe thats the only way to win. (i.e a stupid ultra attempt to HOPE that you catch them doing something stupid is more silly than actually scoring a knockdown then do overhead punch on wake up)
[] while exRU is fun to connect and satisfying as hell if you unloaded a combo video in a live match, if you lose the match you’re still a loser.
[] ex dash straight is a BEASTLY AA.
[] relying on headbutt to pass through fireballs isnt always the best idea. neutral jump + SA absorbs often puts you in a better situation than being susceptible for the other guy to catch you on your recovery.
[] a patient rog is more beast than a reckless one.
[/LIST]

i’m borrowing your above post to highlight something.

I am much attracted by your last point. When is a patient rog equivalent to a turtle rog ? I played my match against another rog and he was pretty offensive. After i posted the videos, there are criticism that i’m turtling. I would really think i’m just being more defensive and looking for mistakes, but sometimes it’s better not to explain anything.

[media=youtube]z2AL3Q4T3PU[/media]

please tell me if i’m being a turtle in this match and how i can improve.

Ephemeral · April 21, 2009, 12:45pm

turtles to my definition are ones that really dont move (storing a charge or smth) or ones who like to drag a screen’s worth of distance away.

what i mean by patience is when i play my rog, i make it a rule to not backdash, move back, or jump back. its either neutral jump, SA, or pokes. Of course some circumstances require me to move back (like smacking lariats) but in most cases i stick to the rule. i dont even wobble. i just keep walking straight with SAs, neutral jumps and crouch for charges if necessary. i’ll only start moving back and forth when im in an optimal jump in range to kinda secure that spot.

the issues are really straight forward. its how you guys dont follow through when you hit confirm a jab. its recommended that if you know a jab or two hit, keep linking it for the combo. (hence i dont mash jabs anymore) and you must learn to stop if the combo isn’t gonna keep hitting (not following through a headbutt when c.lp c.lp hit, but you missed the c.lk link)

just issues of reflexes. work on that first. overheads can be thrown out of. i dont block them in mirrors. i wouldnt recommend holding back charges in a standing position so you move all the way back either. i headbutt only in anticipation of an attack, cross-up negation, and from hit confirmed specials.

koroshiya8 · April 21, 2009, 1:07pm

Ephemeral:

turtles to my definition are ones that really dont move (storing a charge or smth) or ones who like to drag a screen’s worth of distance away.

what i mean by patience is when i play my rog, i make it a rule to not backdash, move back, or jump back. its either neutral jump, SA, or pokes. Of course some circumstances require me to move back (like smacking lariats) but in most cases i stick to the rule. i dont even wobble. i just keep walking straight with SAs, neutral jumps and crouch for charges if necessary. i’ll only start moving back and forth when im in an optimal jump in range to kinda secure that spot.

the issues are really straight forward. its how you guys dont follow through when you hit confirm a jab. its recommended that if you know a jab or two hit, keep linking it for the combo. (hence i dont mash jabs anymore) and you must learn to stop if the combo isn’t gonna keep hitting (not following through a headbutt when c.lp c.lp hit, but you missed the c.lk link)

just issues of reflexes. work on that first. overheads can be thrown out of. i dont block them in mirrors. i wouldnt recommend holding back charges in a standing position so you move all the way back either. i headbutt only in anticipation of an attack, cross-up negation, and from hit confirmed specials.

That’s a good mentality to adopt. i noticed myself always walking back. The point of charging at db is great. thanks and hope i can implement both into my gameplay.

System_1 · April 21, 2009, 6:54pm

Well lets see I only watched the first match I thought that would be enough to tell me what your intent was. Okay I’m just going to list what was wrong.

Random headbutts not sure if the were unfinished combos or to build meter (melee range) or just random.

2.Tap on cammy’s wake up is just not the safest option so try to stop that please. ( especially when she has ultra)

Also unless she hits you with a meaty spiral cannon don’t try to hit her back, once she sees that your not going to hit back she’ll grab so get ready ( she may try a mix up watch out). Oh the reason why i said don’t attack her when you block a safe spiral cannon is because cannon spike hits like a dump truck on counter hit.

System_1 · April 21, 2009, 7:07pm

I’m actually in need of some help from Jay wang and gang lol

Well let’s see I’m really trying to become one of the best players in the U.S. I picked up Rog after final round so here are a few vids can you tell me what I did right or wrong.

Boxer vs. Viper

[media=youtube]JIgABW9dLC4&feature=channel_page[/media]

Boxer vs. Sagat (please watch this, good stuff at around 5:43 lol)

[media=youtube]Lhwf-cpVUIc&feature=channel[/media]

Boxer vs Chun li ( starts at 0:47)

[media=youtube]U9fusXrFw3w&feature=channel[/media]

Boxer vs Blanka

[media=youtube]oPs9GzqDHpQ&feature=channel[/media]

Mr.Trite · April 21, 2009, 9:57pm

Ephemeral:

I hope Jay you dont mind me being an armchair critic, since I seem to post alot but theres not really any vids to show the validity of my play. Against the norm im gonna say that the rog matchup between you and trite is lacking. it kinda became an ex fest and later just kinda mashed into a tick throw/jump-in contest.

Theres not enough punishes going on both sides, and it just seems like both sides are taking a chance at reversals until a side dies. Recently I played HKs top rog and learned the mirror from him. Both of you rely too much on charger and not position yourself where a jump-in would actually hit. it becomes a long range battle when one side could easily just use jabs and c.mk to stuff all the startups the other rog does. c.lp c.lp c.mp xx dash counterhits the other rog mashing a jab for sure. the sweeps were overused and could be punished by the other person easily. c.mk has almost no drawbacks being +4/+7 on top of the fact that a c.hk can be linked after it. even if it doesnt connect its safe on block. I dont see many neutral jumps also. Mix it up with the jumps every now and then because the only thing that beats a neutral jump is a headbutt and i dont think any of you two had a down charge always that handy. Sitting on a dash punch = c.mp xx exRU, c.lp c.lp HB punish.

Also, there are lots of jabs that connect, but didnt follow through. The game would lean in the favor of whoever follows through the most hit confirmed jab combos.

Though the SADC throws are well used kudos to that. BUT i personally would only use it to sustain the pressure when im leading by lots of life or I feel that the match-up does not demand my ex-punches as much.

I.E: Blanka doesnt demand much ex-punches because his rolls break em + he doesnt poke with normals. He also crouches alot, making exRU almost useless. C.hp can stop his jump-ins already so ex dash punches arent really needed. So in blanka’s case I would meter dump with SADC to throw/c.lp (more c.lp nowadays to practice the charge buffering after a SADC) or hit confirm a super from a bnb to dash straight.
  Shotos would demand much more ex-punches because c.hp cannot always provide the angle to counter shoto jumps, exRU/exOH are both indispensable part of my offense etc. In this scenario I wouldn't use SADC throws ever unless that knockdown is essential for a turn around. (safe jump setups)
I agree with toooomeke (your name is too long) that the blanka matchup was WAY too reckless on your half. Dont even try to stuff rolls with jabs when you can PUNISH rolls with lp dash straights (reversal super/ultra). Crouching is very safe because blanka doesnt really have an overhead that he can use to threaten you. Mashing LP can break his LP rolling attack throw (c.lp has priority) you just took alot of needless damage from rolls alone lol Again with the positioning. You pace back and forth too much, and that kinda screws your back charge and theres no point. Also, the only use for SA against a blanka is to AA his jump-ins. Work on this matchup alot more, because blanka cannot win that matchup if you play in a foolproof manner.

In short, you give both trite and the blanka way too much space for them to think. I find my forward pacing jab strings very reliable to score a knockdown and provide a front for my mixup games. Theres just too much useless movements that you gotta break the habit of.

However, thats just how I play. According to the 2 top boxer’s styles i was inspired from, they claim that the pinnacle of boxer gameplay is to abuse jabs. It builds meter on block, and they connect to a knockdown on hit (far jab), and stuffs everything because of speed. Its insane. Hit confirming a knockdown from c.hk, dash sweep, HB, dash straights etc. Throws should be used sparingly, and at times where its appropriate (punishing a jumpin that went over you or an obviously whiff a few spaces away)

Work on the positioning and forward moving momentum. The jab hit confirms should follow through 95% of the time (are throws really that worth it?, I mean I was talking to a few friends about japan vs HK gameplay, and even us Hongers throw too much when japanese players usually hit confirm from one hit)

C.MK is a better footsie than sweep. A vanilla sweep (by vanilla i mean random or plain) can be SA’d and punished.

EX Overhead punches and EX DLS will destroy all variations of dash punches, on top of the fact that EX overhead absorbs can be linked to c.lk on balrog (proven)

Theres just way too many jumpins. Jumping in recklessly makes you vulnerable to rog’s array of AA options. its just not a good form of offense unless its after a knockdown. Its not like you can catch rog in a recovery since all rog’s recoveries cause him to move from point A to B right?

Sorry for this wall of text but i just wish to further the rog community by sprinkling some asian elements in here

I’ll try to remember as much of this as possible.
Both myself and Jay were had a bad day it seems. I couldn’t AA him at all, not even once IIRC and couldn’t follow up jabs very well.

Time to relearn the game

foxisquick · April 21, 2009, 10:03pm

1st one i watched was sagat.

You block to many TS. Neutral jump some of them at the very least. There are times where you are backing up into crouching position. Sagat jumps back and you crouch back… use dash forward? You want midscreen distance cuz that’s your bnb. I don’t see why you’d fight for close position through some tigershots then when you hae the chance to double dash when sagat is jumping back you decide instead of crouch.

I don’t recall seeing many overhead attack against sagat. You also didn’t try to throw that much. Your mixups include c.LP, c.LP, c.LK, and if it lands it’s a headbutt, if it doesn’t it’s a sweep. I’d try to mix that up even more… You did use c.MP to headbutt which is awesome, punishing TU you should be using c.MP if you have a charge and either into headbutt or overhead!

I"m going to watch the other videos now! Also if you’re midscreen you don’t have to use EX Upper all the time when you’re looking for a TS, i’d mix in a lot of lvl 1 tap, ex overhead, ex dash sweeps. I mean i think you play great, but i’m trying to critique for u lol.

gonna watch the rest now!

foxisquick · April 21, 2009, 10:15pm

rofl on sagat you didn’t do enough overheads then against chun you did them everytime she blocked. you sure blasted her though lol.

halcyonryu · April 21, 2009, 11:19pm

You should work on doing an upper loop, MP xx upper > jab > short xx headbutt is much more threatening to punish whiffed uppercuts and whatnot than jabjabshort xx headbutt is. Also throw more.

You jump quite a lot taking advantage of your opponent’s slow antiair reactions. If you get up against better people and do that you’ll have quite a few rude awakenings.

Very solid though, basics are very good.

g_a_m_m_o_n · April 22, 2009, 8:15pm

Grats on the victory JayWang! That last round was hilarious, you guys were both pissing rocks from what I could tell.

I like those s.HK block strings Mr. Trite. I use those all the time to keep mo’fuggas from jumping.

Lilrobthebeast · May 8, 2009, 3:03am

some of my vids coming soon.

Lilrobthebeast · May 16, 2009, 10:00pm

here is some of my vids www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OKIi2ZyajY www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpKJD9SI7w www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSp0eGNv1Qc www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKSMHDSsfk www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KcYj4yYM3g www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbTCRWfyYxk www.youtube.com/watch?v=55gCE8-hpQ8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka-RlR80hNk www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wpKwoLirZE

xaaz · May 17, 2009, 5:27am

Lilrobthebeast

Lilrobthebeast

You’re pretty good, bud. Solid links there. I didn’t see you using cr.fierce much though. I don’t know if not using it is part of your style or if you don’t know about it, but it’s a great anti-air option in case you didn’t already know (particularly against those butt slams those Hondas were throwing at you).

Also, since you’re pretty darn good already and have a solid Rog game you might want to start thinking about trimming those combos of yours. You seem to like “jab x3, short, hb, ultra” a lot. Everybody loves a big combo. They look cool, are great for stun, and help build meter, but a lot of the time they’re just not the most efficient thing to do because of the combo damage scaler, especially when you’re capping them off with an Ultra. Here’s some quick data for some of the crouching combos I saw you use (and also if you were to have used them with an ultra). A few of the numbers might be just a tad off.

Move, Move, etc
Damage/Stun, Damage/Stun, etc, = Total Damage / Stun

JAB, HB
20/20, 160/200 = 180 / 220

JAB, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 160/200, 276(345)-414(518)/0 = 456-594 / 220

JAB, JAB, HB
20/20, 20/20, 128(160)/200 = 148 / 240

JAB, JAB, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 128(160)/200, 242(345)-363(518)/0 = 410-531 / 240

JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 40/50, 128(160)/200 = 188 / 270

JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 40/50, 128(160)/200, 242(345)-363(518)/0 = 430-551 / 270

JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 20/20, 32(40)/50, 112(160)/200 = 184 / 290

JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 32(40)/50, 112(160)/200, 207(345)-311(518)/0 = 391-495 / 290

JAB, JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 20/20, 16(20)/20, 28(40)/50, 96(160)/200 = 180 / 310

JAB, JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 16(20)/20, 28(40)/50, 96(160)/200, 173(345)-259(518)/0 = 353-439 / 310

As you can see, if you trimmed your combos down a little you would be doing significantly more damage, particularly the combos that end with an ultra. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not trying to tell you how to play. You’re already very good, and if you feel the increased stun/meter is worth the decreased damage then by all means, stay the course. It’s obviously working pretty well for you.

Just some food for thought.

EDIT - Forgot to take out the damage for the KPKKK/etc juggles on the Ultras (thanks ToOoOomeke). Same basic idea even without all the hits.

Lilrobthebeast · May 17, 2009, 11:21am

thanks i’ll keep that in mind

ToOoOomeke · May 17, 2009, 12:56pm

xaaz:

Lilrobthebeast

Move, Move, etc
Damage/Stun, Damage/Stun, etc, = Total Damage / Stun

JAB, HB
20/20, 160/200 = 180 / 220

JAB, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 160/200, 276(345)-414(518)/0 = 456-594 / 220

JAB, JAB, HB
20/20, 20/20, 128(160)/200 = 148 / 240

JAB, JAB, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 128(160)/200, 242(345)-363(518)/0 = 410-531 / 240

JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 40/50, 128(160)/200 = 188 / 270

JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 40/50, 128(160)/200, 242(345)-363(518)/0 = 430-551 / 270

JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 20/20, 32(40)/50, 112(160)/200 = 184 / 290

JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 32(40)/50, 112(160)/200, 207(345)-311(518)/0 = 391-495 / 290

JAB, JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB
20/20, 20/20, 16(20)/20, 28(40)/50, 96(160)/200 = 180 / 310

JAB, JAB, JAB, SHORT, HB, ULTRA
20/20, 20/20, 16(20)/20, 28(40)/50, 96(160)/200, 173(345)-259(518)/0 = 353-439 / 310

Just some food for thought.

Your numbers are basically right except for comboing ultra after headbutt. You don’t get all the hits of the ultra which means the damage is significantly less. For instance jab> headbutt> ultra does 414 damage with full ultra meter. Got the right idea tho.

EDIT: Great post by Ephemeral on the previous page. Props indeed

xaaz · May 17, 2009, 3:50pm

ToOoOomeke

Hey bud, thanks for correcting my blunder up there with the damage calcs. I do have a question though. How exactly did you get that 414? At first when I realized I forgot to take out the four hits for a standard ultra juggle I just assumed the 414 you mentioned was correct, but when I went back and did the math myself I couldn’t for the life of me get the same number. Here’s my math if you wouldn’t mind having a look at it.

Assuming we’re using the JAB, FIERCE HEADBUTT, ULTRA combo (your example) with a full 150% Revenge Meter and a KPKKK juggle.

Base Damage:
20, 160, [30, 30, 0, 0, 30, 30, 30, 0, 0, 35, 35] = 400

Damage w/ 150% Ultra:
20, 160, [45, 45, 0, 0, 45, 45, 45, 0, 0, 53, 53] = 511

Damage w/ 150% Ultra & 80% 3rd Hit Combo Scaler:
20, 160, [36, 36, 0, 0, 36, 36, 36, 0, 0, 42, 42] = 444

Where am I going wrong? The only thing I can think of, other than the possibility of my math being wrong, is that maybe I’ve got the wrong Headbutt in there. If it was a Jab HB (130) then that would drop the total to 414, but I don’t recall ever connecting with a Jab HB in those combos when I tried ages ago.

Regardless, I’d appreciate if you could set me straight here since I can’t seem to figure that 414 out. Thanks!

PS - Sorry for this post being slightly off topic from the thread. I’m asking where I’m going wrong and for some critique on my math, so it’s half related. Right? Right?

EDIT - Changed ultra finishers from “#, #, 0” to “0, #, #.” Looks better that way.

zack_austin · May 17, 2009, 9:13pm

.,/?