Balancing Requests/Suggestions for Gen in SSF4 Arcade Edition

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Please post your Requests/Suggestions on this Thread at Capcom-Unity if you have any.

http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/28068389/Balancing_RequestsSuggestions_for_Gen_in_SSF4_Arcade_Edition.

Edit: Since Capcom has officially announced the release of a free balancing update for SSF4 AE in the Fall/Winter of 2011, I just thought it’d be potentially helpful to have this Thread as a way to give Capcom and/or the SSF4 Arcade Edition Balancing team some good ideas on what they can do to balance Gen to possibly make him a more viable character in the next update. Ono has said that he wants to get the balancing right on this next update and that he will take his time on this. It sounds like there’s a good likelihood that this will probably be the final balancing for AE, so let’s hope that Gen will be more viable in this next update.
My idea of changes for Gen -

  • Stance Switch changed to 1 Frame.
  • 950 health and 950 stun.
  • Make Crane Crouching Roundhouse less susceptable to trading/stuffing.
  • Make it so following up with a Gekiro will not whiff sometimes after landing the Zanei (Mantis Super) against an opponent in the corner.
  • Fix the Stance Change Landing Glitch.
  • Make Shitenketsu (Mantis Ultra 2) more useful.

I think Gen is pretty solid for the most part, but I do feel that he does need a little more to justify his frailness a bit. He’s still very fragile considering his health/stun and not having solid answers for upclose pressure.

2

Agree with all your suggestions. For the best part though I think we just need to put in more practice to make him ‘viable’. It’s always an uphill battle with him.
Oh yes, one other suggestion:

-Make Gekiro FADC able!!! And the storyline is something like that: Gen demanded some renumeration/buns from Yang for teaching him the skills and Yang beat Gen into pulp and showed him how to FADC a rising kick while he is at it. Gen learned from his ‘student’ and seek revenge in… Ultimate SF4 Arcade Edition!!

3

Less trading with crane c.hk & FADC Gekiro is all I really want. For the most part AE Gen is solid as fuck imo.

4

Make Mantis Ultra 2 not useless.

5

Who is Paul? He got confused in that he thinks crane st.MP and st.HP are +1 and 0 on block respectively, when in fact they’re -3 and -5 on block.

I actually am mostly satisfied with him. There are things I want to see, but they wouldn’t be necessary. These are purely wants, not needs.

  • Either make his mantis walk speed equal to crane, or switch these two.
  • Roll goes below fireballs (including low tiger shots. Yang can do that), and EX Roll being safer on block and faster.
  • Crane st.HK is more useful. Maybe make his upper body invincible like Dhalsim’s knee so it can be a godly AA, or make it lower body invincible the whole time unlike now where it is invincible for only 4 frames in the middle, and make 1st hit hit crouchers. It’s still -6 on block and -2 on hit if it is strengthened as AA.
  • less pushback, no, make LP hands faster so that all 4 hits actually connects. Make its active frames 3(3)3(3)3(3)3 instead of 3(5)3(5)3(5)3.
  • Either give back the old crane cr.HP, or make it so that the opponent gets the airborne knockdown state on hit, period. And make its pushback much shorter. Or do 187.5% damage on counter hit.
  • Old MK/HK gekiro hitbox. He can lose the 4f strike/projectile invincibility in return.
  • Make his standing crane jab safer, same goes with his st.LK + faster. Make his crouching crane jab +4 on hit.
  • Slightly less pushback on mantis st.MP
  • Mantis U2 -> full connect on airborne hit.

Even if these are all changed, I don’t think he will be at Yun/Yang class. He still doesn’t have easy ass hit confirm to Ultra outside of using Super, and still suffers against 7f safe jumps. However, I feel he would be upper mid tier.

6

That’s me. Just fixed it. I got the Frame Advantage on hit confused with the Frame Advantage on block. Still half asleep, lol. Zzzzzz…

7

Ahh ok. Well, shits can happen lol.

Oh yeah, I want to see one more thing:

  • stance change stays at 5f, but you can block and tech during it.

Making it 1f would be too convenient imo, you can just plink 3kicks~any punch to get out crane cr.HK in 6f from mantis.

8
  • make that crap landing glitch disappear
  • buff mantis walkspeed
  • 4f startup on ppp c.lk
  • kkk. c.hk shouldn trade with anyone (rose, rog…)
  • make kkk c.mp +1 on block
  • make lk gekiro strike invincible till 1 frame after startup
  • lp roll should be -2 on block
  • both jumps should be 2 frames faster
  • mk hands should connect completely, even at max range
  • slightly bigger hitbox (upwards) on ppp s.hp
  • he can lose 50 health and stun, slower startup on kkk super for all that

OR

  • HUGE (50%?) metergain buff

this should make him top

9

Sorry what? (m)2lk is 4 frames. Your jump normals generally do a butt-ton of hit/block stun to allow for the landing stance change you want that gone too? ©2mp is fine on block, you’re miles away, +1 won’t give you shit at that range. Most Gen players can still get 4 bars in one round, you want to be throwing a super out every 4 moves?

My 2c. (copy paste from unity)

Notation: (stance)<numpad direction>move
Things I think would make Gen a serious contender:
[LIST]
*5lk 0 or -1 on hit and -2 on block. It is the logical end to our blockstrings and we shouldn’t be punished for using it (e.g. Cody’s c.lk).
[/LIST]
[LIST]
*U2 having some kind of special property like 8 or 9% of opponents stun value is delivered for every 10% of the grey damage they recover, or doing grey damage that regenerates but stops any future grey damage in the round from regenerating. Just something to make viable as at the moment its only real use anti-airing dive kicks, beating dash punches and being comboable off one bar or make (m)U2 one frame faster so that you can link it off counterhit (m)5mp - this would also make it much better.
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[]Make (m)5lk actually have a purpose: 8 frame start, 4 active frames, super cancellable and -2 on hit (so safe against everything that’s not chun super or super demons) sounds good until you see 40 damage and that it only cancels into crane super (obviously this is to make the move FADCable as that and super cancel are the same ‘property’) but FADC forward is death (you’ll be about -9) and fadc back is 3/4 screen (not good for an attack minded, frame trapping character), but its already pretty safe on block at max range anyway. I just don’t see a point in this move.
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[]I’d like to be able to find a reason to cancel into hands thats not just to super cancel it e.g. make it so that we are at (m)2hp, (m)5hk or (m)2hk range to combo off it so we get our 200 damage off a hands hit confirmed combo, taking one frame off the advantage making these one frame links after it I think would make it fair. At the minute gekiro is the special move of choice, adding this would give us more depth and allow for differing mixups (sweep safe jump/50-50s are different to gekiro ones). On block I’m happy that it pushes back so far.
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[*]Give ©U1 a little more frame advantage on hit. At the minute we recover at about the same time which is a worse situation than (m)U1 and it does less damage.
[/LIST]
I think that’s actually it. I really like AE Gen - much more reliable bnbs that are pretty universal and do good damage. I’m pretty happy with the meter building as I will usually get 4 stocks in a round which I think is perfectly acceptable - any more than that is ridiculous. He’s my favourite iteration so far.

10

Hi guys, new around here. Ive been lurking around the gen forums but i dont really post :stuck_out_tongue:
Also forgive me if I made any mistakes with the info…
Anyways, i think that if we were to do this as a community, we should list the buffs/ changes needed in terms of high, medium, and low priority.
High priority being the things that we all generally agree upon, medium being things that would be nice if changed but not as important as high, and low prioirty just for gimmicks we would like lol.
oh yeah, one more thing, i dont expect Gen to get all these changes, just putting out there what I feel we should focus on asking Capcom for, etc…

So anyways, imo:
High:

  • no nerfs
  • Mantis u2 change: right now this is possibly the worst ultra in the game. I think it could be fixed if it were improved on several things.
    Hitbox: improved so it hits air opponents for full animation.
    Startup: Also, maybe it could activate faster (I believe its 1+9 startup right now?)
    Damage: Another thing is the damage, for an ultra that only does “theoretical or grey” damage, it should really be in the vicinity of the 500s.
    Gameplay mechanic: The timer idea from Alpha seems nice, but i doubt they’ll totally change the mechanic of the ultra, I suppose the most we could ask for is a 5 second pause before the grey damage starts healing (as of now its like 1 second)
  • Landing glitch patched
  • A more viable wakeup/ pressure:
    Gekiro: right now gens dp still loses to safe jumps and crossups. I would like to have more invincibility on EX, and (maybe) faster startup on lk version? I highly doubt they will make gekiro fadc-able, not only would that open up alot of ultra opportunities, but it just doesnt seem “genlike”. I heard a suggestion that maybe Gen should be able to juggle his gekiros, like in Alpha. I’m not really sure, hoping for some feedback from the community on this.
  • Alpha style chains :))) , or (M) st mp with more frame advantage on hit. That way we could easily link to sweep or cr. hp.

Middle:

  • Super meter buff: Some players are fine with the meter building, while others want more. I suppose the new TCs help but more would always be nice.
  • Oga: While we would all love ex oga to have its strike invincibility back, it seems Capcom is insistent on removing these hard to punish escape moves. It cost one bar so I believe its fair, but w.e, we are likely not going to see any changes made. One thing is that EX should be at least faster and have projectile invincibility on the way back.
  • Old mantis jump: I’m not sure how the community feels about this. Some people liked the old jump, but now with the new jump there are specific safe- jump setups and whatnot. I don’t think Capcom will change this either, however I still feel as if Gens old jump arc suits him best, sorta like alpha where his mantis jump was low to the ground. There was really no reason to nerf this anyway, being that Hakan essentially has the same arc as Vanilla Gen, and Gen’s jumping animations in Mantis were really more suited to his low jump. Perhaps the best resolution is tweaking his jump to be something in between Vanilla and Super/AE.
  • Better normal anti-airs: Already saw this was mentioned but I think © st. hk and cr. hk should be improved. Better hitbox, less trades, and maybe faster recovery with cr. hk (unlikely)
  • Roll: Should be faster, (at least EX version)
  • Crane cr. hp: The counterhit damage for gen is just terrible. Remove that. Crane cr. hp is slow as it is.

Low:

  • health/stun buffs: Great if we get them but unlikely. Gen is an old man suffering from a terminal disease…
  • stance changes: highly doubt theyll make it 1 frame. I think its ok right now tbh, but Im just wondering what other people think.
  • Mantis cr. hk damage: Why was the damage nerfed from 100- 85 between Vanilla and Super? Now not only is it the weakest sweep in the game, but we dont really have any combos into it asides from ex hands, counterhit mp. Linking from normal hands would be nice.
  • Crane changes: where were the promised Crane changes? Were there even any?
  • Old mk range: lol im just grasping at straws now

Well that’s all I can think about off the top of my head. IMO, Gen is much better now in AE. He still has to work for his wins (ofc) but I think that with a little bit of tweaking he can be a much more solid character. No mk hands loops back, that stuff was Vanilla and we have a new Gen now.
And again if I have some wrong information, or you have some feedback, please tell me :stuck_out_tongue:

11

like the title says its a request suggestions thread

i dont play gen anymore since ae is out, also, in one of the prerelease informations on dev blog or eventhubs there were some info on ppp c.lk being nerfed to 5 frames startup. sorry if i missed the frame data

what is so bad about me wanting the glitch to be removed?

©2mp should IMO be at +1 to be a good crouchtech, maybe i havent done my homework with frame data, but what crouchtech does gen in crane actually have? yeah you have mantis for that, but what good AA at closerange does mantis have? yeah you have crane for that… any other character has access to both moves anytime. thats what i need.

like i said there was a huge OR for the suggestions, its not like you will be able to throw a super every 4 moves (like you said). yeah anyone gets a full bar in one round BUT only if you didnt spend it on even a single one ex gekiro or a fadc combo. so actually you had to work harder than any character for your first round. well seems like im a noob and gen doesnt need meter buffs

i want gen to be top. i dont enjoy the game if i have to work way way harder than my opponent. but then again thats why i main seth now (its not like he is easy mode in ae, but life has got easier for me).

whatever, i dont want to pick up a fight, so if my suggestions would make him banned from tournaments than simply ignore them.

12

The pre-releases also said ‘Gen has received no nerfs’. Its still 4 frames.
Landing frame bug removal is fine, but I can pretty much guarantee that the air normals will lose some of their hit/block stun. Removing it is fine so long as you know this.

Close AA in mantis you have standing jab, strong, fierce, crouching mk (OS hands), focus etc. There are lots of options, not as good as ©2hk but why would you be crouch teching against a jump in? If you are forced to block it switch to mantis in the block stun and crouch tech from there, if you aa it you’re fine. -1 on hit is fine as a crouch tech, seriously, what can they do to you? Its the 5 frame startup that’s gonna make it not good.

I was exaggerating with the 4 moves bit… I thought that was pretty obvious. Every character if they burn meter on a FADC combo generally doesn’t have a full super after one round either (FU Hakan). I wasn’t picking a fight, it may not have been worded very well but your suggestions didn’t make much sense to me.

@internetmemes iirc (m)U2 is 0+9, but near enough.
We already have some of the best aa normals in the game and y’all want them improved?

lk.wtf already starts up faster than all the others, 5 frame reversal is fine for a character that has such tremendous attacking tools (e.g. viper). I’m pretty content with using the lost, secret art of blocking on my wakeup, I shouldn’t have gotten knocked down in the first place.

On their wakeup I have setups for good safe jumps/50-50s off almost every knockdown so I think he’s fine in that regard, even if you have to be frame perfect to do them. I also don’t think that Gen needs alpha style chains at all. He is not alpha Gen.

I’m happy with the new jump arc, I’m used to it now. The old one would be nice but would void all your safe jump setups (which you already said) so i don’t want it any more.

A faster roll. Hmmm, you wouldn’t be able to frame trap off ©2mp any more with it as it would almost definitely a true block string (not sure how I feel about that). I’d like all rolls to go through projectiles and EX to be fast (like Vega fast) but that’s never gonna happen.

13

Gen’s hit/block stun on air normals are not that different compared to other characters. I don’t see a reason why fixing landing stance change glitch would result in reducing hitstuns. Wouldn’t matter much really, Gen still cannot do empty crane jump gekiro no matter how the glitch is fixed. It would help in comboing from light and some middle strength attacks though.

plinking cr.jab ~ cr.short would make the effective crouch tech as 4 frames, same as mantis. Doing this would also eliminate you from using crane cr.MP with crouch tech, which can get SRKed or SPDed on reversal.

Some players frame trap you, act as if they would throw you, then suddenly do empty jumps. Some characters have nj normals that has huge vertical range with a great hitbox that you cannot AA, and some even hit out of cr.MK. Forward dash doesn’t work because some neutral jump normals extends to the back side. I think I can sort of see where he’s coming from.

14

Then you just walk backwards on those jumps?
Yeah, that crane crouch tech is pretty good (probably the best in crane no?)

15

yeah 5 frames startup for a crouch tech is shit, but i dont want to be on frame disadvantage on hit or block for such a slow tech and if they block it (your tech) you are on -3 and thats simply the most retarded shit ive ever seen in this game. kkk c.mp would be still better than kkk c.lk. but now that you say it, they could simply shorten the startup by 1 frame for kkk c.mp

why should i crouch tech on a jump in?? the situation would arise if they go for a “random” crossup that you cant react to with a dash… with other chars you can react to such shit with normals lets say c.hp or whatever (shotos, seth (s.hp), sim, guile…etc)

i always changed stances in blockstun but against dive kickers it doesnt make life easier. and OS tech with kkk c.hk is simply, well how do i put it… unsafe on block? and is almost not worth it…

also with plinking a crouch tech i have made bad experiences…

ahhh fuck it, was too slow

16

It would most likely result in you blocking the normal (thanks to your recovery in normal and slow mantis walk speed), which is never a good thing.

That crouch tech mentioned is probably the only effective one, rather than the best lol. The others just suck, period. I’d stick with mantis and deal with the difficulty of changing stances all the time for the best AA normal. That’s why I wanted MK/HK gekiro to have the old hitbox, which rarely lose to/trade with air normals.

17

What street said though, use lp~tech. 4 frame startup, 0 on block its pretty good. What I meant with the crouch tech jump in thing is why wouldn’t you switch to mantis as soon as you block/get hit by their move and crouch tech/block it out from there? Lol yeah, ©2hk OS throw tech against the twins is a terrible idea, mantis stand normals are the best thing to use against them.

Maybe don’t strip away strike and projectile from the original gekiro, make one do each? Reliable gekiro AA would be amazing.

18

As OP as it was I really miss invincible EX oga.
To be truthful though I’m quite satisfied with Gen as it is, sitting here trying to think… I do wish I had a better GTFO move… And frankly that’s all that makes him vulnerable. Good rushdown characters once they’re in on gen its really difficult to defend. And with characters like Yun who can get in and out whenever he wants…

Frankly, I like Gen as is… Just fix that dumbass Yun and Yang.

19

too bad i cant play atm but does it work if you plink with lk/crouch tech? i thought lk has input priority over lp when plinked?

20

When LP is input at the same time with LK, then LK has priority. However, if you input LP first and LP comes out as a result, no other normal can interrupt the 1st frame of it. Only specials, supers, ultras, grab~taunts can.