something so slow shouldnt have that much hitstun tho …imo
Well, I agree with a lot of these points.
I will summarize in my own hypothetic rebalance:
Normals:
-
Cr.LK 4-frame start-up (it’s 5 now)
-
Cl.LK +1 on block (because sometimes you get it by accident, and you’re left in a jam)
-
Forward+MP +2 on block (now it’s -3) (so you’re not put in the jam for trying to be on offense)
-
Far HK 7-frame start-up (now it’s 8) (Akuma’s is also 8, but that is more long-range than Gouken’s)
-
Extend the hit-box of Cr. LP downwards, because the chain will sometimes miss Blanka if he was crouching
-
Improve the hit-box of Cr. HP
-
Cl. HP 6-frame start-up (now it’s 8). Swap the target combo because this is cooler and easier, and 8 frames is unreasonable regardless.
Specials:
- EX Tatsu 5-frame start-up, and hit low
- LP Palm move same distance as before, only faster, so it can combo mid-range Cr.LK
- Flip Dive Kick hit overhead
- Hit-frames of all running Palms to activate faster
- Flip Throw whiff regain its zero recovery
- Air Tatsu to cause an untechable knock-down (as is, it will just get you slapped right back even when it connects)
- MP & HP & EX Palm -4 on block (now it’s -6) (so they can be applied for pressure and offense - he needs offense desperately, IMO)
- Improved hit-box on Flip Dive Kick, so it cannot be countered with a crouching jab - nor should it have a vulnerable box at the feet (or from the knee-down)
Other:
- Ultra 1 and Super gain a vertical hit-box at point blank range, like Ken’s Ultra 1 (because after blocking something that has the opponent airborne and descending, you have to wait for them to land before Ultra 1 can be guaranteed to hit, all the while their landing recovery is much shorter than your Ultra 1 start-up, so you’re forced to opt for the Back-throw - which in turn hurts the damage output)
- Ultra 2 fireball to increase in size, and speed at which it is released
Also, as quoted above:
Although, with all of these buffs, I would perhaps exclude Tatsu hitting low.
in fact, I’d gladly take those buffs to Tatsu hitting low. Not everybody has a Shoryuken and I’d take more unique and other solid traits to a get-out-free card. I’d hate for Gouken to be another Akuma - no skill and only lots of failsafe options fit for any imaginable scenario
You are kidding right…
lol. u put it in your signature and u called me a kid.
No, I was not kidding - riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Akuma has safe-jumps left and right with the Demon Flip Palm, which he can mix-up with other totally safe options that also lead to a ton of damage. He has some of the best defense, where his SRK prior to FADC will hit not once, nor twice, but the full three times and collect the chip damage, his teleport straight out of trouble requires a specific counter-measure in advance, he has combos off of anything, that can be used both offensively and defensively, and he has the jumping fireball that always guarantees him a free mix-up.
I will give you that some of this stuff requires technical skill, and I could have worded it differently
What I meant, was that he requires no intuition or thinking outside the box
Now, kindly fuck off, Sir ClxJames
Your buffs make the most sense. I agree, tatsu shouldn’t hit low if it locks on hit and causes a hard knock down.
Not only that, but as an anti-air alone it’s so powerful, and paired with his other zoning abilities and other traits, something has to give, and the poor wake-up is what makes room for the strong zoning, EX AA Tatsu, etc.
It wouldn’t take much to make me happy with Gouken.
A hit confirm (that starts with a light attack) into lp.palm is really what I want the most!
Overhead DF kick would make using EX DF as a wakeup feel a little safer.
5 frame EX tatsu would make it much easier to use as an AA.
Dude you need to stop.
Overhead DF kick does nothing to make it safer on wakeup, the answer is still to duck and lp, or whatever you want to use if you are up to the timing. Flip goes over everyone but the tallest people on wakeup (i.e. Seth, Sagat, T.hawk).
Secondly the point of making EX tatsu hit low (need I remind you it takes a bar to use an EX tatsu) is so that it can be FADCed (now three bars). No Tatsu would do a hard knockdown unless it drops them before the last hit. And if it sucks in there is no need for the hard knockdown solution.
As for you guys acting like EX tatsu having 3 frames is some sort of crazy get out of jail free card, it STILL TAKES A BAR. It’s the only solution to the Akuma hammerfist/flip throw/sweep OS without nerfing Akuma or doing something drastic like giving Counters no armor break (would ruin adon matchup among others) or a new backdash or a controllable EX flip.
Need a I remind you how ASS his regular tatsu is? 7/10/13 frame startup with no i frames, throwable, only hits high, and has the longest recovery of any normal move in the game (and HK has the 3rd highest recovery of ANY move in the game including Ultras and supers).
You guys act like we have meter all over the place or something.
Are YOU serious? Silly Akumabot.
Don’t get me wrong I think tatsu hitting low would be great but do you really think they are going to give us that?
One thing I’d love to see, and i mentioned it in the akuma matchup thread, is for kongo to not lose to armor breakers when it’s a reversal. Just like (but opposite to) how other specials GAIN armor break on reversal.
Honestly, we’ll be lucky if they give Gouken anything. Gouken should have gotten nothing but buffs in AE and he got a few minor buffs, a debatable buff, and a huge nerf.
Edit: That’s a great idea Artificeren
very good idea.
But the thing is that Gouken will then be another generic character. Remember the days of SF2, prior to ST? Some characters like Ryu and Ken had reversal Shoryukens, while other characters excelled in pure offense.
As is, you need to think about how to get out of trouble. I like that, but it shouldn’t but totally unreasonable. As is, you can defend with EX Kongo, but the attack could be an armor-breaker, in which case you could or could not do an EX tatsu or EX Flip - but they could easily just fail and reset the situation.
Perhaps the EX Kongo needs a buff. Recovery time reduced to something like 1 frame.
Also - I think they should give the MP Kongo a new animation. Seriously.
bullet train speed palms please.
Dude, seriously? You think after two years no one has thought about how to get out of Akuma hammerfist/throw/ options select sweep?
I’ll save you two years of trying. You can’t.
Hammerfist is safe cause EX tatsu is too slow. Hammerfist beats jump. Hammerfist beats counter. Backdashing a hammerfist gets you swept for free and back to getting hammerfisted. Hammerfist beats forward dash. Hammerfist beats focus. EX flipping a hammer fist gets you… ready for this? Swept. Which leads to… right. Hammerfist. Did I mention you also have to block hammer fist high?
Once you realize your efforts are futile, you get flip thrown which leads too…
I know you’ll figure out the answer.
Giving Gouken an EX tatsu that is 3 frames and hit low does not make you generic, not every tatsu is 3 frames, normal tatsu will still be useless so you don’t have to be generic or stand a chance without meter. Don’t fret. Gouken will still be free on wakeup.
Between needing EX counter just to counter simple jump ins cause of the current situation of kongoshin, EX tatsu to get simple jumps ins because regular tatsu is slow and not hit invuln, and EX to do max punish I’m sure you’ll have plenty of EX leftover for wakeup EX tatsu fadc…
Kongo doesn’t need a buff other than to go back to two kongos (which isn’t happening) or for HP counter to extend downwards to counter deep jump ins and cross ups. What is 1 frame off of recovery going to do!? It’s barely useable as is with three zones unless you use EX.
Gouken is crap because he has no tools to sustain an offense, he can’t punish mid to mild mistakes, and his zoning is not good enough that he should have to deal with such a shitty wakeup. Something needs to change or he will forever languish in shit tier. Angled fireballs is a great idea, right up until you get to the level where people don’t jump… So now you just have a regular fireball, one speed, that can’t hit twice to stop focusing unless you charge it for 80 odd frames…
Add to that they removed the LP palm from super so you can’t even throw out a random palm to stop focus dashers and be semi safe. Instead you have to throw out MP palm which goes 2/3rds of the screen and is guaranteed to get you punished if you guessed wrong.
Listen, I was against 3 frame EX tatsu as well, and probably for the same reasons as you, but I’ve come to see the light. Just think about it. Seriously.
would it be so bad if they made ex demonflip a little controllable? I mean it doesn’t have to be as good as blankas, but it would be nice to have an ‘out’ especially against the twins. nj. tatsu isn’t even a great escape. I can understand some characters have to have a bad wakeup, but somethings got to give or gouken is still going to be relegated to bottom tier. Maybe we should collaborate on a video to show just how bad goukens options are, something like an exhibition of gouken getting his ass kicked in a really unfair manner. Maybe outline stuff like Reipin said about how Akumas fist owns goukens soul for example. Maybe if capcom had a visual they’d feel a little more sympathetic to our cause…
Kongo could back to high/low form with LP kongo as a “fake”, cancelable type of animation. Akin to a fake hadoken.
lp = fake, mp = vanilla/super low, hp = vanilla/super high. Not hard.
What purpose would a fake Kongo serve? People are going to throw if they are going to throw. Fake kongo still has animation frames. Can you explain to me how this would be used in the context of a match? A better idea would be to make it counter throws but we know that isn’t happening either.