On a sweep-setup safe jump, ryu is normally in the air for just one frame I believe. Against some other characters (cammy/sagat/blanka), ryu lands before they stand and therefore would always whiff his jump-in attack. So you would have to delay by just a small amount. That proves difficult to do reliably. But maybe others have had better luck.
In order for ryu to end up blocking on an attacking safe-jump, the reversal attack would need to connect on frame 3 or 4 after he lands. With 1 frame in the air, that means the reversal would have to have a startup of 4 or 5. 3 frame dps shut down attacking safe jumps for exactly this reason. And 6+ frame reversals will start their active frames during an OS’d move, if one is done.
Boxer’s EX headbutt has a startup of 12 frames and invincibility of 15. Gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself with.
Does the 6 frames start up for Ultra + 3 frames on invincibility valid to beat OS sweep from a safe jump.
Is there a disadvantage of OS sweep of the ground or its for free ( apart from technical difficulty)
When you go c.lp , c.mp for a frame trap that leave a 2 frames gap, Does it counter hit any move that was into
his start up that dosent have invincibility.
How do you know when you have time for a Focus between some opponent strings moves. Does it have to do with frame data
If you can time it right, even a one frame gap is enough to start the focus. As to whether or not you can punish with it depends on the remaining active and recovery frames of the move, whether the focused move is cancellable, and how long the move cancelled into takes to come out. If you focused a jab/short and they’re mashing out a chain, then you have no chance. Similarly for most any target combo.
You’ll eventually get a feel for what you can focus through and what you can’t by playing enough offline. (I’m about 20% of the way there.)
If you want to calculate it, you have to take into account a few possibilities. Via a focused attack you can punish with either:
A dash-forward (jab into combo)/throw/dp/super.
A lvl 1 focus attack, that you’ll probably backdash out of. Though it has a chance to crumple if the active frames of the focused move are on-going for some reason. Or, if the focus attack is not a guaranteed punish and it catches the startup of another move.
A lvl 2 focus attack. This will crumple.
#1 is a little different from #2-3…
Let’s assume that the focused move will not be cancelled in any way. Start by determining some values:
Let ‘t’ be the number of frames of the gap between end of the block/hit stun of the opponents last move and the 1st active frame that will connect on you of the followup move.
Let ‘r’ be the number of active and recovery frames of the move, minus 1. (Subtract more frames if the move hits meaty for some reason.)
Let ‘d’ be the number of frames of your dash out of focus, including the uncancellable duration frames, plus the number of frames of your punish. (For ryu, 21 + 3 = 24.)
Let ‘f1’ be the smallest number of frames of a level 1 focus attack, minus the actual startup frames of the attack itself. (For ryu, 10.)
Let ‘f2’ be the smallest number of frames of a level 2 focus attack, minus the actual startup frames of the attack itself. (For ryu, 18.)
Let ‘fa’ be the startup of the focus attack itself. (For ryu, 11.)
Getting back to our list of 3 possibilities. Each punish is possible if the respective numbered comparisons are true:
(d - MIN((t - 1), 4)) <= r
f1 + fa <= (t + r) AND fa <= r
f2 + fa <= (t + r) AND fa <= r
How much fewer the frames of the punish is compared to the frames available indicates how easy the punish would be.
I’m roughly 95% sure this math is right. So I could be missing something somewhere. Would appreciate if somebody double-checked.
Thx for the complete math Answer Theli. I would have to reread it a couple of times , my maths course it pretty far
Would be nice to have a complete tread didicate on How to approch differents opponents block string.
What you can you Focus, Where are the weak link to try reversal etc etc. I dont see any information at all about this
information. For the most part I am just blocking and tecking but I am sure there is ton of missed opportunity.
My sentence wasnt clear , I meant to say in general Does the 6 frames + principal reversal that beat OS sweep apply
to any ultra that strat in 6+ frames.
Noob question : When I go c.lp, c.mp within a blockstring is it the same timing than when I am comboing into it.
Also for frame trap If there is gap of 2 frames , Is it simple as if opponent push a button within does 2 frames
he is getting conter hit unless the move has invincibility or become active before mine.
When in block stun SSF4 engine take Stick input into account but not buttons is that right… I am
little confused
Agreed. Ive been thinking about starting this lately.
havent tested, but I believe the freeze animation would cancel the OS. Not sure though cause the OS has been previously buffered, but think this is the case.
yes
if the oppoent presses a button within that 2 frame pause you will counter them, unless their move has armour / invincibility.
it will still interpret the inputs but you wont get any response until the reversal windows which is 4 frames prior to the end of blockstun.
When somebody is doing a string that have 1 frames gap, as I understand I will get counterhit if that gap happen to meet with
the exact first frame of start up my OS tech for example.
Do you think the 2 frames gap created by c.mp in string is usually enough to get a counter-hit or you like widening this gap.
Is the gap getting a good chance to get OS tech masher.
I have seen Daigo go for J.hp , wait c.lk for example.
In that case I would suppose the goal of the frame trap is to leave 2-3 frames , so that c.lk active
frames meet with the the second or third frame of my opponent leaving block stun.
Am I right to think when I leave a 3 frames gap I would never get beaten by a normal of opponent.
I guess I would trade with a 3 framers jab.
I dont remember whats my bonus frames +++ when I get a counter-hit
this is getting seriously away from anything to do with OSing byt meh…
Yup, thats right.
This will catch someone mashing tech throw yeah. There is a small chance theyll avoid it but this is your best bet.
Im not 100% sure how much of a gap you would have to leave after the J.FP for this because its impossible to give accurate frames (it depends on how deep the J.FP hits). You would need to hit C.LK 3 frames prior to your opponent leaving blockstun, resulting in a 2 frame gap.
You answered your own question.
+1 for lights, +2/3 for heavier moves, depending on the move.
It can be quite conmplex but not in the initital instance. It really comes in stages. Stage 1, for instance, has just one rule:
You wanna make sure your move is going active 1 frame before the opponent’s is. EXAMPLE. VS BOXER. Your jab is blocked. Youre at + 2, his quickest move is a 3 frame jab. Add those two numbers together. 2+3 = 5, so he can hit you after 5 frames, meaning you need a start-up of 4 = C.MP.
IM WORKING THROUGH SOME THEORY IN THE REST OF THIS… THIS IS DISCUSSION NOT FACT… thanks
Stage 2 (intermediate and 100x harder than stage 1) :
The most obvious problem with stage 1 is that they can reversal in between that 2 frame gap. So how do you deal with that? Depends on character… Obviously VS Ryu you need to leave a minimum 4 frame gap to catch the SRKs, VS Cammy a 6 frame gap and so on. Problem here, of course, is that in leaving those gaps youre giving the opponent the chance to take momentum. If you bait SRk and they just jab, theyve got the upperhand. However, both these gaps are too small for them to see and react to, so at least its a fair mindgame, and youre the one making the decision.
Stage 3 : mega impossible to do anything about stage… lol
All this frame trap BS gets blown out the water when your opponent knows the blockstun of your moves and techs late, say frame 6 (unless theyre going for standing tech). …
If theyre teching on frame 6 that means your move needs to come out by frame 8… soooo… now you have…
1-2 frame gap beats mashes / loses to reversal
4-5 frame gap beats reversal (on Ryu… just exampe) / loses momentum to mashes and loses to standing throw
9 frame trap loses to late throw AND loses to mashes but beats reversals
… the difference here between mashing tech and timing it late is pretty big. Essentially, if you late tech, youre creating a whole other possibility for the person doing the string to take into account. previously Mash light / mash throw could be dealt with as essentially the same thing. By teching late youve created a whole other timing to be dealt with.
… hmmm… im kinda going off topic now lol… need to think about this.
Thx Darth for your detailled answer, I am getting pretty off topic OS , maybe
I will create a specific tread for frame trap and blockstring.
4 gaps bait for Shoryuken, Int a simple 1 gap hole make the job to bait SRK. Shoulnd it be the same for Cammy.
I mean a reversal being 4 , 6 or 20 frames, once the initial frame has been bait it dosent matter how long it last.
If am +2 on block I just have to make sure I am blocking 3 frames later to block any reversal.
There is something confusing in all that but I hope I am right and it solve one of
your problem exposed above.
PIETON: If you are + 2 frames then you need to be blocking at (start-up of reversal) + 2. So for Ryu, if youre trapping SRK you need to be blocking at frame 5 minimum to block the mashed SRK.
Youre right I made a mistake , confuse myself with start up with active frames.
But my point is still valid that it dosent matter how many frames opponent reversal.
You just need to leave a 1 frame gap to let that initial start up to pass throw.
There is no need to create big gap to bait reversal , so that is good news
since you were saying was the problem of baiting.
A longer reversal will just give Ryu luxury frames to block.
I am rereading your post , I think what your saying is you cant push a buttons in those 4 frames Reversal when youre baiting.
But then again cant we just block and push a button within those 4 frames, and the block will take priority if
opponent decide to in fact reversal in the gap.
pieton, you are right about baiting a DP masher -> you just stop your string and see if they dp. this is the easiest bait there is.
most good players do late tech, but that does not mean that frame traps don’t work. i guess since crouch teching is a form of option select it doesnt hurt to discuss a little here. if you watch some of the very strong players -> sako, daigo, tokido, etc… they use specific frame traps for baiting techs at different points in the string.
first off, most of these tactics dont work online because no one blocks EVER lol. so when you jump in, you are going to have someone already mashing… use the standard baits for this, just pause and punish. anyways, in the event you play a good player:
you jump attack, land walk forward a split second, then cr.LP / cr.LK / cr.MP etc… this is to bait the cr.tech after a jump attack. you can see tokido use this one a lot in his replays and punish really well.
against mashers who block the first attack then mash -> you can attack deep, then chain lps or lks then pause, if they dp, you punish, otherwise you can continue with cr.MP etc…
against cr.tech, you can you cr.MP, but spread them a little farther than the 2 frames that would occur if you used combo timing.
there are a ton of frametraps against different characters, but remember that most good players tech during the tail end after the block stun, just after they think you threw - at least they should be which is why they dont get thrown a lot. you have to try and create a counter attack off this, if possible, by faking the throw.
darth paul, plz no animosity, but you really shouldnt be creating any frame traps at 8 or 9 frames. i dont really know where you were going with that, but i know you were just thinking out loud. if you were to do any frame traps that long the opponent could get a counter hit off you with just about any attack they have.
There’s no “need”, but doing it like he said is safer. Reversal dp has 3 frame startup. If you use a frame trap with a 4 frame gap, you can just do your string, and if they reversal, you’ll block on the 3rd frame, and your next attack won’t come out. Leave a 1 frame gap, and the reversal beats the next attack in your trap.
If you leae a 1 frame gap that SRk will come out and hit the start-up of your next move. you cannot beat an SRK from a 1 frame gap…
go back to C.MP again. Youre at +2. A 1 frame gap here essentially means letting the opponent go to neutral frames so they can enter a move (they have a 1 frame window to do something).
You therefore wait 3 frames from your +2 (so it might feel like this is a 3 frame gap but in reality it is 1 frame). The opponent hits SRK on their first available frame. SRK has 3 frames start-up, so it will go active 5 frames after C.MP. Therefore, if you press a button prior to that 5th frame (the 5th frame after C.MP) you will be hit by SRK on the start-up of your next move…
You must give the opponent at least the start-up frames of their moves to bait it and avoid being hit. So for Ryu you must leave 3 frames, Cammy 5, Rog 8 (well… 8 and 10 I guess)… If you dont leave these gaps your opponents reversal will hit you during the start-up of your next move.
you guys are talking about a bait, Not a frame trap. to bait, you just pause and wait to see the move. your frame data is just so you dont press the buttons during the startup…
a ten frame, frame trap doesnt really trap anything considering if they cr.tech, they change the momentum in their favor…
darthpaul, this is not a disagreement with you, just a different point of view. please dont break your keyboard :).
my keyboard, as always, is perfectly happy thanks bguile. I am happy to see youve managed to moderate your opining, at least to some degree. Well done!
And you are right to a degree, yeah, a bait is just a pause. But that is just a bait. It gets somewhat more interesting when you are aiming to bait whilst doing something else as well. For instance, your opponent might not SRK and might just stand up n throw. To deal with that you know you have 2 options. 1) Crouching tech after frame 3 (to avoid SRK) and by frame 7 (to tech), or standing tech before frame 10.
Gets even more interesting once you take into account the OS of the tech. For instance, VS metreless Rog his reversal is 8 frame Headbutt. So suddenly you have a 3 frame stand-up throw, an 8 frame reversal, a 4 frame crouching OS tech (which as you say changes momentum). So there various factors to take into account. But once you realise that the frames are at 3 4 and 8 you can bait by going from C.MP (+2) to OS tech + C.MK. This will leave a 3 frame gap to bait, will escape headbutt by C.MKs lowered hitbox and will tech or beat throw depending on timing.
so yah, baiting in itself is easy, but making full use of the frame data to win over a variety of different situations, is a lot harder.
Putting OS in block string frame traps may not accomplish much. Even if you entered the tech input with the normal that is starting, if you’re thrown you still won’t be able to tech.
^ I always do it regardless. Theoretically you have nothing to lose. If the other player has already entered throw you will tech, else youll just use your move. Its something I do personally simply because there is a chance that you will enter your move on the same frame or a frame after the opponent throwing… its more a kinda “why not” thing than an anctual action… if you see what i mean (not really making that clear lol).
No, I get it. There are tons of worse habits you could pick up.
Edit: Just to be clear to readers, I’m NOT saying that all OS tech inputs are useless when it comes to block strings and footsies. I’m only referring to the 2nd hit or later of a real block string frame trap where you want to enter your next attack either as soon as possible or within a few frames. (At the very least, before the 3rd frame of action available to the opponent.) And if you are entering the next attack as soon as possible, you might be better off plinking or double-tapping it if you can.
youre absolutely right ! I am confusing baiting start up frames when in reality you have to bait the first active frame. So the longer the start up
of the reversal the more you have to bait and you just cant do much meanwhile.
Now I was under the impression that techking a throw and not being vulnerable to frame trap was easy by stuff I have read in the past on Shoryuken.com
But how is it easy , just an example:
lets say I am at +2 after c.lp and now I go either for c.lk or grab
option 1 : my grab become active on frame 3 ( its call a tick throw I think) So opponent can OS tech between frame 3 to 9 right.
option 2: i go for a c.lk. My c.lk become active on frame 4 and stay active for frames 4,5,6,7 . So opponent has in reality only 2 frames ( 8 and 9)
to block both option 1 and 2.
option 3: I go for c.hp that has 8 active frames… and 4 frames start up … now opponent is ***
I cant be jab out of this set up since I am active 1 frame before the 3 frames jabbers…
I leave a 2 gap for reversal but thats another story…
Vs some people who are very good at tecking very late but dont mash I can even delay my frame
trap by couple of frames to be sure to beat those too…
