You cant react and input an SRK before getting hit by EX Dash. Without the OS the SRK is completely ineffective (unless youre god). This J.MP thing really is good shit. I dont think theres another way of dealing with ALL of Rogs wake-up options (well, you can defend VS them, but you cant beat them. )
I’m not so sure about that. You have the flash. Then the hitstop of the absorb. The 4 frames of landing recovery. Assuming hitstop of 13 frames, that’s 17 total frames + however many before the dash connects to try to get that out there. It seems feasible if you buffer.
One rule of thumb I’ve heard is that it’s generally reasonable to react to things taking 20 frames. I’ve come to have a little trust in that.
^ if you buffer and negative edge…? possibly, but youre still talking about very good reflexes and some hardcore execution if you want to jump-in OS say C.MK AND be buffering SRK and also ready to enter your blockstring. dunno… if you can do all that fair play to you, I doubt I could lol.
OS c.mk is just a single button press at the right time. Should simplify it a bit.
Any kind of buffering may be too awkward. I don’t know. I’ll see if I can find any success attempting this in the near future.
Theli, im confused, doesnt Rog’s EX Dash hit Ryu during landing frames 3 and 4 where ryu cannot attack…?
I don’t know. Which EX Dash have you found this with?
EX upper is 5 frame start-up and thats the one Rogs use I believe.
SRK wiki lists that as 7 frame startup. As does the balrog forum thread and a google cached copy of the eventhubs frame data. (Can’t access it right now.) But that could easily be wrong.
wait, yah it is 7, sorry. I was testing a minute ago though and I was jumping in and mashing jab VS EX Upper and I couldnt get Rog to score a counter hit… meh i must be doing something stupid, ill look again.
wait, yah it is 7, sorry. I was testing a minute ago though and I was jumping in and mashing jab VS EX Upper and I couldnt get Rog to score a counter hit… meh i must be doing something stupid, ill look again.
so can you please post a video of you getting the 2 hits off of rog on wakeup and beating the focus?
i can’t do it, and i have never seen it done. you have done it enough in training room to start making strategy around it. if you dont want to post the video - could you please post your training room procedure?
i dont see where this is new thing because i am sure i not the only one that has tried this unsuccessfully. balrog’s movset hasnt really changed at all since vanilla.
i didnt know that the point of this thread was to explore “new territory”. that is fine… good luck and i think that is good. maybe you guys could mesh this in with the hado spacing guide. that guide has a similar philosophy and i think the two would fit well together.
Way to be passive aggressive, bg.
No, this thread was not intended to “explore new territory”. It was only intended to help people understand the concepts that make OS possible. And it just happened to be where the discussion started. Sorry to disappoint you.
Ok, I don’t know what’s going on… But it’s proving impossible to dp boxer after he uses an EX dash (straight or upper) to absorb a safe jump done from c.hk without delays. It seems to hit ryu during those 2 frames where he can block, but not attack. This suggests that those EX dash punches actually are under 7 startup.
So is the frame data actually wrong here? Or is something going on that we don’t understand?
Also, I have been able to record ryu doing a slightly delayed jump after a c.hk knockdown that resulted in 2 hits on boxer. Of course, I had ryu block low right when he was landing and held it for a while. This made lp headbutt whiff, blocked all other headbutts, hit boxer 2 times to knock him out of EX dash straight and upper, and blocked super and ultra (as expected.) All reversal.
This is a valid non-OS jump-in that works against all of boxer’s reversal offensive options. (He can of course block or backdash.) But it is really hard to time both the jump and the aerial attack. I only got this after at least 30-40 tries. It’s extremely easy to jump too late and eat, or trade with, an EX dash punch.
For the record, lp headbutt whiffs simply because it can’t hit ryu when he’s crouching. So there’s really nothing special about that.
I don’t know if this can be viable. But I’ll try giving it a shot now and then. There’s a problem though in that not that many boxers try EX dash punches on wake-up. And even when they do, I’ll probably mistime it. Still, it would be nice to see it done during a match at least once.
Theli, this is exactly what I thought. In my head EX Dash is 5 frames start-up. I dont know if its listed as 5 frames anywhere, but from my testing I have to preume it is, unless the armour has some strange property associated to it that somehow takes 2 frames from ryu instead of Rog. I dont know how that would work though. TBH this is why I said that it is 5 frames start-up. You quite rightly said the guides list it as 7, but I dont see how that can be. Is it possible the guides are incorrect?
there may be something going on we dont understand. In practicality I am not sure it matters (unless it pertains to other armour moves where a use may be found). Either way we cannot beat EX dash with SRK so whether it is 5 or 7 is essentially irrelevant.
I very much appreciate you confirming this Theli. It is no surprise that the jump needs to be delayed, that is a natural oucome of the active frames of J.MPs 2 hits.
he cannot backdash if you OS C.FK with the J.MP. It beats everything and insures he has to block. Personally, I think this is a great find and very much worth practicing, Its application is of great benefit to Ryu in my view.
that doesnt explain how the OS C.FK hits LP and yet Ryu blocks VS other HBs. i am still scratching my head at that. I cannot understand it. C.FK should be coming out all the time yet it does not. Rog’s HBs come out at 8 10 and 12 respectively. How the hell can he be hitting a C.FK at frame 8 when Rog Lp HBs and not when he MP or FP HBs?! Either hes blocking or hes attacking, yet both our results say hes somehow doing both and it IS NOT ANYTHING to do with hitboxes. Sure, LP HB might miss Ryu when crouching, but that does not explain how Ryu can both block and attack based on Rogs move. URGHHHHHH this shit does not make sense.
.
in my experience quite a lot of Rogs use EX dash. You must have had very diffferent games to me. It is still useful. If you consider it a mind game, the fact that the Ryu KNOWS he is completely safe to enter his blockstring makes a lot of difference IMO.
oh and BG : learn to understand the basic mechanics of SF and you will see that the J.MP has to be delayed. Once you delay it really isn’t that hard to get it to work. It took a little while for me to get the timing right, but once I did, it really wasnt too much of an issue. Perhaps looking beyond your limited understand before calling me a liar will help you to a) improve and b) stop talking shit. Good luck.
oh and A2ZOMG : thanks for posting the initial J.MP tip. It produced one of the most interesting conversations Ive had on SF theory in a while (and I still cannot understand the OS C.FK restults).
well, i stand corrected.
i am not able to reproduce this at all.
theli, you are doing an EX Straight Dash and it says reversal? Then you are able to get both hits on rog and continue?
i could not get this to work and i tried a shit load a while back.
theli would you mind posting a vid so i can see how this works? or at least describe your procedure more?
BG just forget our past hatred. I am willing to explain to you. It is quite simple TBH. instead of hitting the regular safe jump just leave about a 3/4 frame gap before you jump and hit J.MP a little hight… Obviously it isnt possible to give exact height or w/e but the important point is the delay and hittng J.MP early. If you just try it a few times in different ways I am sure you will succeed. And I believe it will ultimately be worth it .
Assuming ryu’s c.hk safe jump only leaves one frame in the air, then it’s true that it must be delayed.
It is technically possible to connect 2 hits from the j.mp with only 2 frames in the air on their wake-up. It’s just even harder to time than when it’s delayed over that. And that’s already hard enough.
I did not attempt to test this with an OS’d attack. I can’t verify how it would behave if such an OS was attempted. It may be that you suddenly become vulnerable to one of his headbutts or the fast version of super or U1. I’m done attempting this, as it’s honestly very difficult to get just the timing of the jump and attack down, let alone the OS. But if someone can manage to bust a vid out showing this, I’d be very grateful. (Where is ranix when you need him?!?)
Balrog’s non-lp headbutt is preventing the follow-up from coming out. Because the jab cannot connect on ryu, it cannot prevent the attack that is attempted. It’s a little odd that it can prevent both mp and hp headbutt’s though. From everything I’ve heard and read, there should be just a 2 frame window where balrog can force ryu to block before his OS’d action comes out. Yet mp hb is listed at 10 frames startup and hp hb at 12. (A 3 frame span for moves that behave the same for the same OS.) Was it like this in vanilla? Maybe they tweaked the landing frames a little? I don’t know.
Maybe your recorded OS when you tested this was off? Maybe you hit the attack a little after landing frames are over? That would explain why those 10 and 12 frame reversals are blocked with the same timing. I’d still call it an OS, but it’s just an oddly timed one that doesn’t make use of the 4 frame landing buffer.
We all have an incomplete understanding of the rules. I just wish more posters got that, would be patient, and even sincerely contributed until the questionables are sorted out.
You realise you just pointed at the error in your own logic?.. this could all be cause rogs frame data is wrong, its hard to tell. Something is fucked somehwere though. Theli test it yourself, if Im doing something wrong then fair enough, but I still do not understand my results.
Apparently super doesn’t keep the recording when you go to play some endless mode. mutters
I really don’t have a ready method to copy to video. I should just splurge and get something, but money is a little tight.
I attempted both EX straight and upper. I recall it saying reversal. Unfortunately, that’s a memory now and I can’t double-check for you. I did essentially spam the buttons on wake-up though, so it seems like a safe bet.
My testing method, from what I recall, was this:
- P1 Boxer, P2 Ryu. Set Ryu to record.
- Restart round from pause menu.
- Move forward to roughly half the distance, maybe closer.
- c.hk
- Try to time a jump forward only a few frames after ryu recovers from the sweep.
- Time the j.mp a little after the apex of the jump.
- Hold down-back.
- Keep trying over and over and over until it connects twice.
- Play back and test HB and EX dashes.
- If HB and EX dashes don’t hit or trade ryu, you’re done. Else, try many, many, many more times from the beginning.
I did not attempt a follow-up attack. I did not attempt an OS. This is just a non-perfect safe jump-in into block.
ok, i will try to explain my version of the SF4 mechanics. you guys can explain to me where my thinking is off.
First we rule out practicality. Next, here is what is happening in my mind and this applies to option select concept:
i believe that using the OS concept is why this doesnt work. because in order for you to hit Rog with 2 MP in the air you have to press MP 2 times.
if rog does EX dash punch you can counter hit the dash punch on startup. BUT - if rog does EX Head butt, the first MP will whiff and therefore the second MP will execute while ryu is grounded causing the EX head butt to hit you.
This is why i have asked for what procedure you both are using. I would also like to a vid of this because, again, it doesnt make sense to me. Since both of you are doing it, it must be happening - i would just like to see how you are accomplishing it.
This is the same reason that OS cr.HK gets beat by EX Headbutt.