So the general consensus here:
1.) Adon cannot be safejumped…
2.) Ryu is actually at a -1 frame disadvantage after an empty jump…
3.) Cammy actually gets up faster than the rest of the cast…
4.) Teching with medium punch added is actually “slightly” faster than doing a regular tech with LP and LK…
Good stuff…It’s funny how i actually dont agree with any of this :). But, i guess that is what a forum is for.
Ryu technically being at “-1” on empty safe jump is usually irrelevant. Do you know how hard it is to enter an input on the very first, or even second, frame after landing without accidentally hitting it too early and getting the 2/4 frame landing delay?
IT’S FUCKING HARD.
I have tried to take advantage of this in the past. It is possible, but you have to prepare. Only way I found that seems to work for me at least half the time is to hold down one button or more before you jump and try to get a negative edge special out.
Do I try to use this at tourneys? No. And not because I don’t think it can work. It’s just hard to remember to try it along with everything else going on in your head. Maybe eventually I’ll successfully pull off this particular shenanigan in real play.
^ Yah I agree Theli. Im not sure what Pieton was aiming to use the inforation for but he asked the quesion so meh, thought i would answer it.
I’m sure it’s possible to incorporate into your game to punish people who do the same thing over and over. Like if they automatically throw you when you empty jump, this could catch them. It’s just hard to keep in mind.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone out there was already doing this now and then.
I wanted to contribute an idea, but I have no idea how well it works in actual practice, or how many people know about it. When safe jump option selecting Balrog, if he has meter, you should use j.mp. If he commits to an armored special reversal, this should ideally break it if you time it right.
The problem is that in a proper safe jump you have only one or two frames in the air to connect on your opponent. That really only allows for a single hit to connect.
Now you could jump earlier from setups other than sweep and try this… Boxer doesn’t really have any quick invincible reversals. So that could still qualify as a character-specific safe jump if the jump-in can’t get beat or traded by a non-invincible anti-air. Option selecting in this case probably wouldn’t work, although I haven’t thought it through.
J.MP > OS SRK will cover both the EX Dash and Headbutt, I dont believe you can OS the C.MK with J.MP to cover headbutt. Youre talking about adding 4 frames to your jump for both hits of J.MP.
Id have to test the C.MK OS to be certain, but I dont think Ryu would get down low enough in time to avoid the headbutt.
Probably can get low enough to block, if not reliably manage an OS.
I have no idea why someone would EVER OS SRK jump against balrog. It makes absolutely no sense.
Lets see: jump OS SRK vs balrog headbutt = 130 DMG Max.
safe jump vs balrog headbutt = easy 230 DMG or 270 depending on spacing.
jump OS SRK does not work vs an EX dashpunch.
i am not positive about jump MP vs EX dash, but i am pretty sure when i was doing training mode against rog this didnt work… i will have to check again.
imo, the best OS vs rog without ex is hurricane kick because i get a lot of backdashers…
a proper safe jump means that you are hitting on the exact last frame of your jump before you land. so you only have exactly one frame to hit.
against rog, if you sweep and jump anything, the very last frame of your jumping attack falls on the exact first frame of his wakeup.
this is why Pieton’s academic question turned out to be so silly.
^ should probablly actually read the conversation again BG. We’re not talking about a regular OS. You cant hit 2 hit J.MP on the last frame because of the active frames of the two hits. Thats why the SRK OS is relevant and why the C.MK Os is questionable.
Edit: Hmm, I gotta think about this some more. I think I got lost somewhere.
Generally, most invincible reversals seem to be staggered in a way to provide for an extra frame in the air while still giving the same result. There are exceptions, but they’re kinda rare.
I don’t get your logic. Sweep ideally sets this up just fine. The trick is you have to jump LATER than usual, since you want more frames for Balrog to get hit by your J.MP.
And I don’t see why you can’t safely meaty the headbutt as well. Unless I read Eventhubs frame data wrong, there isn’t any frame gap between the hits. The hits have duration 3*4. Unless I’m mistaken, you could feasibly try hitting with a late active frame and then it continues onto the first active frame of the second hit right before you land.
The only thing about this OS to me is that it seems to require skill and timing to pull off, but I don’t see why it isn’t possible to cover all of Balrog’s wakeup options with it. Assuming the J.MP is timed right (which is also going to require skill), I think you have a 2 frame window to safe jump in a way that allows you to land both hits of J.MP. Balrog’s lp headbutt is 8 frames. Jump+aerial land lag is 4 frames, and you need at least 2 frames of air time to land both hitboxes, but you need to be within 3 frames of landing to keep your lag time within 7 frames.
Oh, right. Maybe my head’s messed from lack of sleep or something. Jumping later is right.
Allowing only 2 frames in the air before their recovery is just too difficult to work with to do something like this. I understand what you mean by timing the mp, but I can’t see what you can use to base your timing off of to get something that strict. It’s a little more reasonable if you try to use a delay for this.
Aerial attack ground recovery is 2 frames on the ground before you can block. It provides a little extra buffer if you don’t try to go for an OS.
The plus side of all this being that if you mistime the mp, or your delay on the jump, you will still probably hit with one of the attacks anyway as long as you didn’t jump too late and get reversaled.
Oh I see, now that makes sense as to why you can’t safe jump those DPs except for Dan’s lol.
Then if you OS into blocking the headbutt, you have a generous 4 frame window to safe jump with in a way that lets you meaty with both hits of J.MP. Assuming you break Balrog’s focus, the OS still lets you hit confirm into a combo.
LOL. A2ZOMG you been hanging with DarthPaul? Because i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about :)>.
Darthpaul, i did read what you are talking about and i posted what i thought was a good answer.
First off if rog has EX dash it means he has EX headbutt - EX headbutt has a very long invincible time. SO - you have to use OS EX DP against rog when he has ex headbutt or it will beat your reg DP. You guys havent mentioned this at all. So you only get the top end of the EX DP for 60 DMG - instead of 230 to 270 by doing a standard safe jump.
Second, have any of you been able to get the 2 hits (j.MP) off the EX Straight Dash? Like i said earlier i remember trying this is training mode a while back, and i could not get it to work. I would really appreciate it if someone could post a vid of this.
Third, jumping in so early that you are intending to meaty cr.MK DP? If you are planning on jumping earlier than a safe jump off of a sweep this will only happen if the sweep is a counter hit. And even here, good balrog are going to go for throw or block - and you are going to get thrown if you are going for some kind of MK os. If he blocks, you wasted a good mix up opportunity.
So all three things seem rather shitty when compared to a standard safe jump which turns into huge damage if he whiffs a head butt.
If you guys are just talking academic theories for fun without testing, i apologize for even getting involved. I’m not really into that metaphysics thing with video games.
Balrog is one of the easiest characters to safe jump in the game because the startup times on all his reversals is so long. This means that you can block every single one of his options, you can also mistime your jump a little after a throw and still be ok.
Just because it’s possible to do an OS doesnt mean it’s the best move.
bguile, it was my mistake for saying that you would jump earlier. Jumping later is in fact right and would result in more frames in the air. Due to the lack of quick hitting reversals on the part of balrog, this may be viable in order to make connecting with the two hit j.mp easier.
A2ZOMG said “OS into blocking”. No, that’s not quite a proper use of the term “OS” for jump-ins. But if his intention is just that he blocks on reversal and connects the jump-in otherwise, hit confirm would be feasible off the 2 connecting hits to either not commit if they block or commit if they for some reason do not manage to block that jump-in attack.
Come on, man. No need to jump down our throats. Though I appreciate that you’re at least trying to do some kind of double-checking.
Theli, i am not trying to rain on anyones parade.
Here:
Have you or anyone else ever landed the 2 MP hits on balrogs wakeup EX Dash? I was not able to. Just because the general consensus on these forums is that it works and is possible, doesnt make it so.
I thought that my post would be very helpful to all the people that want to know about option selects because it explains in very simple terms why OS DP sucks vs balrog. I am not double checking anything, i am posting the reason you never see top players use OS DP vs rog.
think this is the bit which is setting you at odds BGuile. We kind of ARE discussing theory. If I were to actually play a Rog right now Id use a regular safe jump OS C.MK because that is the best move that I know works. However, I also dont like to discount the possibility that there may be a better answer .
I hadnt tried for 2 hits of J.MP because I always use the regular Rog OS and havent had time to test it.
Also A2ZOMG : you cant work on 2 hit J.MP with 2 frames in the air. The active frames are 3*4, so you have to have at least 5 frames in the air to get 2 hits. That is why I said about OS SRK. Cause I dont think youd have enough time on C.MK to get low to avoid the headbutt and the only other possible OS is SRK.
oh and BG : I know OS SRK VS Rog is not the best answer, but im working with the J.MP idea theoretically. Also, TBH, I dont recall playing too many Rogs that used EX Headbutt. Normally they use normal headbutt or EX dash.
Imma test the J.MP out later when I get some time. Ill post my results (though I am, perhaps amazingly, suspecting that BG is right and that you cannot get the 2 hits VS EX Dash).
I never use OS vs rog, can you remind me Darth what OS c.mk is for ?
I guess it must be for ex dash punch. When you cross up Rog is Os tatsu a good os to catch Ex dash upper.
Rog has 2 options 1) EX Dash 2) Headbutt. Safe jump FP OS C.MK will make the headbutt whiff whilst allowing you to block the EX Dash. Thats better than OS SRK because OS SRK will trade with headbutt. Better to be 100% and make them waste metre.
you cant OS a tatsu VS EX Dash, the start-up is far too long and EX Dash is frames (or is it 5… ? I forget. )