Then I stand corrected. But I believe reversals that aren’t able to abuse the DP shortcut will still get caught if they attempt to do any motion that requires moving away from any of the Down positions.
[media=youtube]lea9o487UpU[/media]
for reference
Oh definitely, most buffered moves will get tagged in a cr.lk chain. I actually see people getting hit going for DP all the time because they don’t take advantage of the shortcut so I thought I would mention it.
So in other words, if your one-frame links are well timed on block, mashed command grabs can not beat them?
Mashed command grabs with no strike invincibility? Yes. However, in this situation, the risk-to-reward ratio is absolutely in the grappler’s favor. You’re risking committing to a 1-frame link, against an easily mashed reversal grab, by using an attack with no invincibility frames. If you win, you land some damage, yay. If the grappler wins, and the percentages are on his side, not only does he land a grab that does more or equal damage to your potential combo, he gains a knockdown and positioning advantage against you.
Wow, thanks for that info! So, to recap, well timed one framers can beat mashed command grabs [no strike invincibility]. What about two framers? Do they beat mashed command grabs with no strike invincibility? Also speaking of strike invincibility, which of Zangiefs or T. hawks command grabs have strike invincibility?
In the case of Gief’s SPD, his command grab begins on the 2nd frame. So if you leave a 2-frame gap in your attack, he will grab you, unless you use an invincible move to beat him, like a well-timed DP.
I think Seth also has a grab that’s not strike invincible for a period of time, but don’t quote me on it. You’ll have to talk to someone more technically minded than me.
Seth’s EX SPD is strike invincible for 1-4f, but neither are throw invincible and his SPD starts up in 3f. I’m pretty sure Zangief’s EX Throw is strike invincible - I know Hawk’s is - but wiki is unclear. Think they start up in 4f. Abel’s EX throw is strike invincible while his non-EX is throw invincible, but they start up a bit slower (7f? I think.)
Yeah, I was wrong about command throw > throw. I was looking for that youtube video.
I mentioned this earlier but according to the list of priority in that video a command throw will beat a normal in a trade so a ‘1 frame gap’ frame trap wouldn’t work against Zangief’s 2 frame spd. So the SPD would have to be 3 or more frames for the frame trap to work. What might work for a 2 framer is an attack string that has 0 gaps but isn’t a blockstring for example starting with a jab that is +3 and then linking to a 4 frame cr.mp. Best way to be sure of all this is to test in training mode and if I had a console at home I would do it myself.
note: If you’re good at plinking 1 frame links then you should be able to make use of this tech but otherwise like eltrouble said it’s not practical.
(This frame trap is theory, if anyone with a console gets a chance to test it out let me know how it works)
PRESSURING ZANGIEF WITH CAMMY
I thought it would be nice to have a working visual for all the info in this thread and I can’t think of a better example than Cammy (because getting in Zangief’s face is a real option for her, check out any videos of Alioune, Acqua… playing a Zangief). If you can make cr.lp > clst.hp > cr.lk frame tight I think it can work amazingly against him. Cr.lp is +3 on block, clst.hp has 4 frame start up and is +2 on block, cr.lk has 3 frame start up. You can plink both clst.hp and cr.lk and hit confirm off of either but it’s probably better to hit confirm into cr.mp xx SA (or cr.hp > cr.mk xx SA if it links) off of the counterhit clst.hp. Great thing is you end in cr.lk so you can go back to a safe chain if it get blocked.
Cammy does relatively well up close against Zangief because of frame advantage on her normals and her ability to lock down Zangief with EX Cannon Strike and condition SPD spamming with cr.lk chain/TKCS frame trap. The real advantage of having frame traps in your arsenal (besides huge damage increase from using combos vs pokes) is meter building because I believe even blocked attack strings do that. This is great because playing defensively against grapplers usually means low meter and EX Cannon Strike is so important in locking down and conditioning Zangief. That’s why I think it’s smart to have frame traps that can blow up SPDs because strings = more meter and more chances to pressure. Also every TKCS puts you right back in for pressure/string opportunities.
Cammy can be very creative up close and while Zangief might still be a grappler you CAN make him uncomfortable in his own space. Do that and he’ll think twice about how he approaches you.
edit
??? A jab that’s +3 into a 4f cr.MP is a 1f trap. A block string with no gaps is a true block string. The only command throws you can’t frame trap no matter what are ones that are 1, 0+1, and 1+0. Since they only take 1f to become active and win against strikes done at the same time, you have to use an invincible/throw invincible move. But all of these are Ultras or Supers anyway (well RBG appears to have 1f of start up if the Wiki is to be believed…and I doubt that.) SPD becomes active on the second frame, but it still has one start up frame.
This can be pretty confusing because of “when it’s active.” The wiki really should have a note somewhere that says this; I forget it a lot myself…
Good to have that cleared. When we were saying “frame trap with 1 frame gap” I was thinking something more like a +3 jab into a 5 frame cr.mp. That would leave a 1 frame gap in the middle where the SPD’s startup would go, haha. So that Cammy frame trap should work then, I’m excited to start using it.
good luck eating those ex-spds then. And I don’t think you are frame perfect, so I also wish you luck with regular spds as well
So like ken’s one framers like cr. jab to cr. fierce and cr. strong to cr. MK would get SPD during as a frame tap?
Summary: if you’re not zoning properly, or actually landing hits that combo on a char like T.Hawk, and keep pressing buttons up close, you will be spun. Remember, we (grapple bros) can ex the spinner in this… and 720s pretty much blow throw any thing, and in some cases have very deceptive (long) range.
Against Ryu up next to me, doing like two low normal mids, I would block that out, but as I know pretty well the range on all 3 regular 360s, I would look to see how far he has been pushed back, and go from there. Obviously you look to get a general feel of what the other guy does, and how aggressive or conservative they launch specials after pressure strings. Be aware Hawk can zoom right back in at you, through a fireball or even a big fireball Ultra like Chun has, using his ex condor spire move. Then the split second yomi begins again.
No, because c.lp, c.hp is a one frame link ***combo.***This means that the +5f from c.lp allows you to finish the c.lp animation fully and c.hp can hit still.
If you hit the combo it looks like this:
After hit c.lp (hitting on first active frame):
Frames (1-2)- Ken’s c.lp last 2 active frames: Gief in hitstun
Frames (3-8)- Ken c.lp in recovery frames: Gief still in hitstun
Frame (9-12)- Ken c.hp startup frames: Gief still in hitstun (this is the point where frame data refers to +5 for Ken on c.lp)
Frame (13)- Ken’s first active frame of c.hp hits because Gief is still in the final frame of hitstun from c.lp: Gief hit by c.hp xx fireshoorookyn
result: combo
If you drop the combo by hitting c.hp 1f late and Gief does reversal SPD it looks something like this (not entirely sure about active to recovery frame transition if anyone wants to chime in):
After hit c.lp (hitting on first active frame):
Frames (1-2)- Ken’s c.lp last 2 active frames: Gief in hitstun
Frames (3-8)- Ken c.lp in recovery frames: Gief still in hitstun
Frame (9)- C.lp recover is done but c.hp not started yet (dropped link): Gief still in hitstun
Frame (10-12)- Ken c.hp startup frames: Gief still in hitstun
Frame (13)- Ken’s c.hp in last startup frame: Gief’s reversal SPD in first startup frame
Frame (14)- Ken’s c.hp in first active frame: Gief’s SPD in first active frame, Gief grabs Ken for regular SPD.
result: SPD
If you drop the combo by hitting c.hp 1f late and Gief does reversal EX-SPD it looks something like this (not entirely sure about active to recovery frame transition if anyone wants to chime in):
After hit c.lp (hitting on first active frame):
Frames (1-2)- Ken’s c.lp last 2 active frames: Gief in hitstun
Frames (3-8)- Ken c.lp in recovery frames: Gief still in hitstun
Frame (9)- C.lp recover is done but c.hp not started yet (dropped link): Gief still in hitstun
Frame (10-12)- Ken c.hp startup frames: Gief still in hitstun
Frame (13)- Ken’s c.hp in last startup frame: Gief’s reversal EXSPD in first hit inv. startup frame
Frame (14)- Ken’s c.hp in active frame 1: Gief’s EXSPD in second hit inv.startup frame
Frame (15)- Ken’s c.hp in active frame 2: Gief’s EXSPD in third hit inv.startup frame
Frame (16)- Ken’s c.hp in active frame 3: Gief’s EXSPD active: Gief grabs Ken for EXSPD
result: EX-SPD
So as mentioned by BDI, EXSPD pushes frametraps down in the tall grass and makes sweet love on them. SPD not so bad either.
obviously you have to look out for EX SPDs (and probably lariats too). If you had an option that covered all of your opponents options then the character you’re using would be broken. It’s no different than baiting a DP. You can also use EX Cannon Strike instead of completing your frame trap which would be much harder to punish with EX SPD, that’s the flexibility I was talking about. If you’re playing smart than zangiefs should be wary of using those moves because it’s a big punish if they guess wrong.
If you’re 1 frame late on a 1 frame link and he does reversal SPD (non-EX) than you should hit him out of his 1 frame of start-up. Zangiefs are most likely to punish you’re dropped combos with EX-SPD or lariat anyways.
No, In the described scenario Ken’s HP and Geif’s reversal SPD become active on same frame and when that happens SPD will win. Also, Gief players will not lariat during blockstring really. Not really a great move in that capacity.
‘Ken’s HP’ will be active on Gief’s reversal frame and SPD has a 2 frame startup (this was covered in previous posts), you will hit him out of his startup.
Frames starting w/ first frame after recovery from cr.lp (+5 on hit)
[1-4] Gief in hitstun
[5] Gief still in hitstun, cr.hp becomes active in a successful 1 frame link
[6] Gief recovered, 1st startup frame of reversal SPD. Dropped cr.hp becomes active.
[7] SPD becomes active
You sure 'bout that? 'Cause AFAIK just thinking about the whole thing mathematically, if SPD beats normals and is active on the 2nd frame, a 1-frame frametrap wouldn’t work. Because if you leave a gap of 1 frame, then the next frame the SPD is already active. Now, I’m not educated on this or anything of the sort, but, my sense of logic dictates that 1 frame is too much. Only way I can see a frametrap work in this case (from how I understand it,) would be with some kind of untrue blockstring with <1 frame gap, if that exists.
Or I must be misunderstanding, because I thought a 1-frame trap would allow one frame of action before your normal will hit, but in your case your normal is hitting on the first frame that should allow him to do action, so from my understanding of terminology it’d be a 0-frame trap, which I also find to be wonky 'cause it depends a bit if you’re locked in blockstun or not.