So the way I understand it if you do a command grab (specifically Zangief’s 2f SPD) through [S]a blockstring[/S] an attack string/frame trap with a 1f gap [edit: the 1f gap I was referring to is actually known as a 2f gap, sorry] then both the grab and attack will become active on the same frame. What has priority: normals/specials or command grabs? And is there any difference between regular grabs and command grabs concerning priority? You also encounter this scenario on wake-up. If you do a ‘reversal’ 3 frame jab on wake-up and your opponent grabs you on the 3rd frame (2 frames grab invincibility after wake-up) then both attacks become active on the same frame.
I guess the question has more practical applications towards [S]blockstrings[/S] attack strings and whether or not it is safe to use a 1-frame gap [S]blockstring[/S] attack string on a grappler. Still I’d like to fully understand the base mechanics at work.
<UPDATE>
Thread Summary
-Throws will always beat a normal in a trade. Cmd throw=cmd throw and cmd throw=regular throw, outcome is random in either situation.*
-Here’s a correct example of an attack string (frame trap) with a 2f gap: start with a cr.lp that’s +4 on block and then a cr.mp with a 6f startup.**
-In order to successfully frame trap a 2f SPD (non-EX) you have to use one with a 1f gap such as Cammy’s cr.lp (+3 on block) into st.hp (4f startup).
-Zangief’s 2f SPD has 1f of startup and becomes active on the 2nd frame.***
*for video example scroll to post# 22
**example on post# 45
***post# 39
The whole point of block strings is that there are no gaps. Block strings are used specifically so that you cannot reversal out of them, and if you try, you end up getting hit. This has its uses not only as a test to see what your opponent will do under pressure, but it also allows certain characters the ability to hit confirm into a combo.
It depends primarily on which specials and which command grabs you’re using. Certain uppercuts have a lot of invincibility as well as airborne frames, so they usually beat out command grabs by default. Of course if you know your opponent is mashing the ever-living shit out of a command grab, it’s probably best not to insert frame traps in your attack string.
Since you insert a 1-frame gap in your attack string against a grappler, that allows him to grab you, since he’s invincible and will grab you on your subsequent attack, assuming that your attack doesn’t have invincibility frames of it’s own, or if you’re not airborne.
So assume a grappler does a command grab w/o hit invincibility (Zangief regular SPD) through your attack string (1-frame gap), what happens when your attack and command grab trade?
edit- sorry about posting across threads, looked liked there weren’t any new posts in a couple months here so I thought the newbie section would be better. Won’t do it again.
you can frame trap command grabs as long as they don’t have strike invincibility. so if you do a 1f gap against zangief and he tries to spd, you will counter hit him out of it. if the throw and attack come out at the same time, the throw takes priority.
it’s usually difficult to make a string that tight without a special attack cancel though, and much easier/lenient to mash spd.
Theoretically if the active frame of the attack and non-invincibile SPD come at the same time, the command grab will win. However if your active frame comes out 1-frame before his SPD begins, you’ll hit him out of it.
In practice, this isn’t really reliable. The vast majority of the time, you’ll be eating the SPD, so it makes the risk v. reward factor skew in the grappler’s favor. Unless of course the grappler doesn’t mash command throw during an attack string, and instead crouch-techs, in which case a frame trap would be more effective.
All theory craft. Safest thing to do is simple blockstrings. A grappler’s advantage is strongest when he’s in your face, so the safest and more reliable way to play is to keep him back at sweep range and further.
[S]…I was trolling above, but isn’t this actually based on hitboxes? You can’t just say that the throw always wins?[/S]
…actually forget about that…if we assume that the hitboxes are aligned so that both moves will connect and both moves are active on the same frame; I don’t know how to answer which one would win. They would have to resolve that with some kind of priority based logic in the code. Is this information known? I can’t see how anyone could reliably recreate this in Training mode.
I don’t really understand what you’re going for here. If you leave a 1-frame gap, it’s a frame trap, not a blockstring (as blockstrings leave you in blockstun the whole time, so you can’t do anything until he’s done hitting buttons.) And SPDs don’t have 1-frame startup. If he’s not strike invinvible, and his move takes 2 frames to start up, but you leave a 1 frame gap, that means his move is still 1 frame away from catching you when you hit him, so obviously you’ll hit him out of it. Unless he’s invincible, 'cause then he ignores that hit, and you’ll still be standing there.
I.e. I think you’re complicating your question quite a bit more than necessary, instead of just asking if a normal or command grab has priority if they hit on the same frame (which people above confirmed that throw takes priority over the normal, so if you do a jab that’d hit on the same frame as an SPD, you’ll get grabbed instead.)
If you’re facing someone who enjoys mashing SPDs, your timing has to be frame precise or you’ll eat it. It’s probably more reliable to neutral jump instead of frame trapping in that case, and you could get a punish off of it. eltrouble mentioned some good stuff, I think.
that’s what I was thinking because I feel like I’ve seen people frame trap spd’s before. I usually do alright with 1 frame links as long as I can plink it so with practice I think those tight frame traps can be practical.
Sorry I shouldn’t have used the term blockstring, I meant attack string (frame trap). Zangief’s SPD is listed as having a 2 frame start-up and as I understand it that means it actually has 1 frame start-up and becomes active on the 2nd frame. The 1 frame start-up takes place during the 1 frame attack string gap and both normal and spd become active at the same time. Correct me if I’m wrong.
edit - I think being able to frame trap Zangief has it’s uses because you’re more predictable being 100% defensive rather than periodically getting in his face. Also if you neutral jump and he doesn’t spd then you get a lariat on the way down.
The game assigns priority to the throw. Though I forgot where I read this…
It is hard to replicate…another thing is that a character’s throwable hit box and projectile/physical attack hurt boxes usually aren’t the same. I don’t think this is well known.
It’s confusing because a lot of attacks on the Wiki do in fact list the first active frame as the last start up frame. Sometimes the data is still correct, other times there +/-1 frame in the active frame category.
spd is active starting from the second frame. he easily punishes moves that are -2 on block/hit.
generally 1-frame gaps are not recommended against gief/hawk because you’d have to be spot on with your timing, whereas grapplers can generally just mash spd and take advantage of the special move input buffer. but if it’s something you can get the frame trap down cold, more power to you. remember though that gief still has more than a handful or reversals to beat the frame trap.
when hitboxes collide on the same frame, the priority goes:
command throw = throw > strike
so jabs will always lose to spd if they happen to hit on the same frame.
I’m not sure how the game mechanic works, but I know if you attempt a reversal DP in a block string, you stand up and get hit by low attacks. That is why you sometimes see top-level players block the first or second hit of the blockstring, and then suddenly get hit by subsequent attacks, without any frame traps being used.
I got people saying spd’s start on both frame 2 and 3, haha. Maybe reversal spd has different timing and that’s why punishing -2 moves is possible? It’d be nice to know for sure which frame it starts on but in any case if it starts on frame 2 then even a 1-frame frame trap wouldn’t work since everyone is saying a command throw would win in a trade with a normal.
edit - after thinking about it if you start with a normal that is plus 3 and link to one with a 4 frame start up that that should work. I guess you’d call it a 0 gap frame trap. No gaps but not a blockstring. You’re attack would be active on his 1st start up frame. Honestly all this hypothesizing would be unneccessary if I had a console at home I could test on.
Even in block stun (auto block as you called it) you still have to block correctly high or low. You see this when akuma or sakura puts you in block stun with hadoken and forces you to block an overhead or low afterwards, hold the stick the wrong way and you get tagged. You’re in blockstun so your only option is to block.
You can avoid this by using crouch DP (df, d, df+p). You’re in blockstun so it doesn’t matter if you hold df.
So can Zangief actually grab limbs or do some attacks just move your throw hurt box forward?
In SF4, the last startup frame is the first active frame. SPD got 2 frames startup - starts on frame 2. Reversal or not does not influence framecount in any way.
Gief can’t grab limbs because Dhalsim has his throw hurt box at his body and his limbs only got hittable hurtboxes. Ibuki can “grab” limbs because Raida is not actually a throw.
I think the priority for moves on the same frame was [Command Throw = Throw > Strike]; I distinctively recall someone testing this in a YT Video, where he did 2 CmdGrabs at the same frame (outcome random) and CmdGrab vs Throw on the same frame (outcome random). Throw beating Strike is… commonly known. No 100% guarantee here though.
