3801

I do agree with arstal that it has a tendency to move more in extreme conditions (last seconds of the match, down 3-to-1 and KOing a character)

http://www.digitalfrontierplus.com/DFPTV/frx.html

(Right-click and “Play”)
Watch at 1:25. Don’t remember whose Malin that was, but I do remember watching this match when it happened and having tell the winner he actually won (or I might be confused with another match).
Another example of how Judgement adds to the game.

3802

KOing characters swings Judgement a lot period, that has nothing to do with the end of a match. Watch a match where early KOs happen and you will see that it moves a LOT more than it does at the end of a round. This has already been discussed, Judgement moves less as the match goes on.

3803

Real men don’t switch their characters out, they let them die like the real men they are.

DG, I saw the WW7 ps2, and all I gotta say is goooooood shiiiiittttttt

Get that Tesse in order, my Slash wants a good fight

3804

KO is a KO
Judgment is a Judgment

What if its Kula,Malin,& Liz vs Athena,Momoko,& Mai

then what? o:

3805

is fighters history played at normal settings or faster speed?

3806

You misunderstood. I was demonstrating how the Judgement system can affect the match and result in an unexpected outcome. In other words, Player 1 has life advantage, Player 2 has Judgement on his side. With the clock running low, Player 1 suddenly becomes extremely aggressive in an attempt to KO Player 2 before he can win the Judgement. Player 2 takes advantage of this recklessness by playing safe and chipping away with quick hits to further push Judgement in his favor and potentially KO Player 1 before time runs out.

In ANY OTHER GAME, Player 2 would have to be the aggressor in this scenario because Player 1 has life advantage and would win a time out. So this scenario defies all logic learned in other games.

Understand?

3807

imo it goes sumthin like this, crouch-b,crouch-b,super,run the fuck away
wait & bait cause you have no choice but to attack=gay
why should somebody be able to control the match by doing nothing?
just because people dont like it and like to win by life/chars they are idiots?
maybe i dont wanna stick my head out to get chopped off, oh wait…i have to
since you hit me with some short kicks and even though i have more chars than you…you win! now thats what i call mindgames/depth:rolleyes:
i guess i just dont understand the system as much as you.:rofl:
wow kids today.

3808

How does “cr. B, cr. B, super” equate to nothing? Obviously you DID something to gain a Judgement system advantage, just the same as you would to get a life advantage.
BTW regular supers don’t affect judgement much at all–LDMs have the most influence.

It’s just the same as bitching about Ring Outs, which is also stupid.

  1. You can win in Marvel even if you have less characters…I guess that doesn’t make any sense either?

  2. Some short kicks won’t really affect the judgement meter

How is it not? In most games you have no chance if you’re that far behind (as the Malin was in the FRX video) with only a few seconds left. Judgement adds strategy and encourages comebacks.
There would be almost no reason to save your teammates in KOF XI if not for judgement.

I’m not so sure about this.

In that Final Round match…P1 had Judgement ALL the way in his favor but LDM hit on Ralf + KO Ralf + LDM hit on Gato shifted the Judgement all the way to being slightly in P2’s favor at the end of the match. Which I think would be about the same if it had happened in the middle of a match.

3809

IMO
Judgement is SNK’s excuse for making people play harder in the beginning of the match.

My best pressure comes from my 2nd and 3rd char, so it makes you wanna put in A LOT of pressure when the match barely begins.

That’s why I pick a pressure char like Kim or Ozzy 1st.

I know how to get that judgement bar moving in the last 20 seconds (if you’re not dead by then:arazz:)
but only with Gato or Kula.

3810

I like (old) KOF, but this wouldn’t surprise me; SNK has a history of introducing awkward mechanics into the game to force you to play a certain way. Normal throws still suck, right? Did hyperhop get so low it takes you underground yet?

3811

The way supers affect Judgement is really specific, some LDMs don’t move it for shit.

The main point is that Judgement causes you to value things that don’t make sense to value. For example, let’s say that the players have been exchanging hits evenly, but one of them is playing Maxima and the other one is playing Momoko. So even though the Judgement meter is even or slightly in one player’s favor, the Maxima player has a lot more of his life left. In any other game, Maxima is winning by a landslide, but as pointed out, Momoko could land something as simple as one or two weak attacks linked into a super and sway Judgement in her favor. Now, even though Maxima is still winning by a good bit in terms of life, Momoko is winning the match, forcing Maxima to come after her.

Again, all rules and logic you learn in other games has been thrown out the window now. Judgement favors certain characters simply for being able to land multiple hits easily. Grapplers are hampered by Judgement. Various other things are affected by this seemingly-arbitrary system. It forces a certain way of playing and it does so in a pretty ugly way.

This is another big mistake. Leaving a near-dead character around actually puts you in danger of losing by Judgement because they are so easy to KO. This is demonstrated in the situation you outlined below:

You don’t know this because you’ve never seen it happen mid match. I’ve seen it for myself. KOing a character mid match causes a major Judgement shift. That situation you outlined would have put P2’s Judgement in solid favor as opposed to being slightly in his favor. Single hits move the Judgement meter much more easily in early fighting than they do at the end of the match.

Judgement SEEMS like it would encourage a late match comeback if you have relatively close Judgement near the end or the other opponent has characters with little life + you have resources for a big combo. Honestly, this same situation couldhappen WITHOUT Judgement. On the other hand, a situation like this:

P1 rapes your team horribly early match, leaving you with one healthy character (your leader) and two near-dead ones, having Judgement almost completely in his favor, while keeping all three of his characters in good health.

Guess what? Judgement isn’t going to let you orchestrate a comeback here. You have to kill his entire team or you will lose. You could get a lucky shot on his team and put them all down on life so low that your one character has more life than they do, but they’ll still have Judgement. Again, against all logic in other games.

3812

Which is true. It seems to reward LDMs that do a big shitload of damage quickly or with a single hit (Malin) than multi-hit combo LDMs (Oswald). If anything, this cancels out the myth that Judgement only awards “combos”.

The Maxima is still “winning”. The threat of KO is still valid–judgement doesn’t take away the value of having a health advantage. Again, I must ask that if a Maxima player can’t KO a Momoko so low on life in 99 seconds, then it’s a problem with the player, not the system.
Also, 2 weak attacks --> super won’t have a big effect on judgement.
In addition (a) assuming Momoko DOES land that, the difference in health between the two would longer be that great, (b) Any small gain in judgement Momoko would get negated easily the massive advantage that Maxima gets when he KOs her (which he should).
Be honest…how often have you seen someone WAY behind on life but still winning the judgement? It really doesn’t happen.

I still don’t see why this is a bad thing. People are always complaining about there never being anything NEW or innovate in fighters and how everything stays the same.
Paul Mooney: Everything wants to play something new but nobody wants to PLAY something new.

Not really. As said, multi-hit supers do significantly less to swing Judgement in your favor.

Not really. Most grapple supers do more damage with fewer hits and thus garner better judgement. I know for a fact that Clark’s LDM gets a shitload of Judgement.

I don’t see how. The vast majority of matches still end in KO. Rushdown and turtle styles of gameplay can both benefit from judgement. It gives a player behind a better chance to come back. I don’t see how it makes the game more limited or worse.

How does not letting your characters die put you more in danger of losing by judgement than keeping them out and letting them die (thus losing a ton of judgement)??? :wtf:

3813

In XII they outta put snap-outs in.
and make em worth a shitload of judgement.

I realize that combos really don’t move that damn judgement bar.
That’s why at the end what I do is apply HEAVY pressure then go for quick combos (no more than 5 hits)
If I keep the opponent pressured, and only prefom short combos that don’t knock down I found I move that thing a little easier.

Like a match I had last week where it was my Gato (last char) vs this guy with 2 chars (Maxima and Eiji).
The judgement bar was nowhere near my side, and 34 clock seconds left.

I get his Maxima with a quick c.B x2 xx qcf+A (no follow-up), then hh.D, /, c.B xx qcf+A (he blocks that string), then I mixup with a sweep. I go in for a crossup with j.B he (blocks it), then s.A xx qcf+A xx LDM. He get guard crushed and that judgement bar go swinging back towards the middle.
All ofb this done in 4 in-game seconds.

So from what I’ve experienced is that if you can apply pressure and punish quickly, and keep it consecutive that bar will swing towards your side, but if you lose it your done, besides I lost that match anyway.

3814

This is so wrong. Oswald’s LDM not only sways Judgement easily, but it burns clock in the process, making it a superb move for garnering Judgement near the late match time (unless you are really far behind). Unless the big damage super kills the opponent, the Judgement movement is far less than these multi-hit supers.

It actually does. In another game, the health advantage means that Maxima doesn’t have to play offensively at all, he can play safe and maintain his lead. In XI, Momoko getting Judgement = Maxima has to attack. The entire flow of the match is different here.

It doesn’t have to be big, it has to be enough. That’s all that matters. Damage is secondary to number of times you actually land a hit when it comes to Judgement, so if two characters are landing around the same number of hits, the Judgement won’t be that different, even if one is doing much more damage than the other.

I picked this example for a reason: weak-ass Momoko against strong-as-fuck Maxima. Momoko would have to hit Maxima a lot more to make a dent in his health. So the damage difference would probably still be very significant.

All Momoko has to do is RUN AWAY and block. And she wins.

I’m a living example of it, I used to do it all the time. I’ve had it done to me. While fighting good players. Dude, I saw it happen in vids from fucking SBO. It HAPPENS.

I’m not one of those people, honestly. New and different /= good by default. Judgement comes off as arbitrary in many situations, the rhyme and reason of it is not really that clear.

And you’re wrong. Just like you’re wrong with your grappler example. A lot of this is common knowledge, dude.

It can also give a player who’s ahead a guaranteed ticket to stay ahead. I RARELY see Judgement act as a free comeback for someone behind, I rather see it as a way to cheat said player out of his comeback cuz he didn’t pull it off early enough in the match.

This is simple. Your character could be down by a lot, but let’s say the match is otherwise fairly even. You switch out to a different character and the fight continues, the other player keeps his in and gets lucky and KOs your second character with one of his characters. Your wounded first character comes in and dies in a simple two-hit chain. Now what may have been a slight to reasonable Judgement advantage is a definitive one because you just ate two quick KOs.

Saving a character is fine as long as that character has at least 30% of their health left or so. If you have a character who will die in one hit, they’re GONNA DIE either way. Better to keep them in, do as much as they possibly can in that moment while you have some semblance of flow in the match, then let them die. By trying to get them out of there hastily, you basically leave your opponent a free mealticket for Judgement they can cash later on in the match where orchestrating a comeback is going to be that much harder for you.

This isn’t an absolute, though. You could have a near dead character who gets a string blocked, QS a healthy character in, then the first opportunity you get to hit your opponent, you QS the near-dead character back in and cash a big combo with them. But I see too many people sign their tombstone by struggling to keep near-dead characters alive. It’s not worth it.

3815

Hmm this is an interesting topic, I like my time out’s to be decided the old fashioned way. Like someone mentioned before it would be great for tie breaker, kind of how SF3 has. But I hardly have an idea on how it works until I play it. Btw DG Waku Waku 7 talk is going down in the underrated game league thread.

3816

First off, in that situation, the Momoko has to hit Maxima with something significant to swing judgement back in her favor. Until that point, the Maxima can turtle and try to force it out of Momoko.

It’s only in the situation that the Momoko gets a DM off on someone who is playing defensive that the Maxima has to attack, and Maxima has plenty of ways to take the last bit of life off Momoko.

What judgement does is make another way of winning open that isn’t just lifebar. Hating judgement to me is equivalent to hating ring-outs in VF or RB1.

It’s an alternative method of winning, and something that can be defended against.

3817

No. Again, read my post, think about the scenario. One hit is really all it takes.

But it’s still a relatively arbitrary way of shifting the flow of the match.

Again, different /= better. Stop using this dumb argument.

3818

I WATCHED someone lose at FRX because their Oswald hit Joker at the end of their match and their judgement actually LOWERED when he HIT.
So obviously, there is a lot more to the Judgement system than meets the eye.

Again, how is this a bad thing? Forcing both players to actually attack isn’t good? If I wanted to watch a match where nobody has an incentive to attack, I’ll watch A-Blanka Vs. A-Blanka in CvS2 or Chun Vs. Chun in 3S (although I’d rather take a stungun to my vertebrae).

I don’t believe so. I’ve seen in matches where I’ve hit once with Ralf cr. C xx DP+C xx d,u + P to more than make up for getting poked by Duck by 5 or 6 times. Damage does matter. Of course, it isn’t solely dependant on damage, otherwise it wouldn’t any different from the life bar system (and it’s supposed to be).

No, she doesn’t. How in the world does Momoko run away from Maxima? And for 99 seconds?

And how often does it happen? And how often do those matches NOT end in KO?

Of course not, but I feel it isn’t perfect but pretty good, especially for their first try at it.

I’ve stated what I’ve seen and you’ve stated what you’ve seen. My conclusion is that the full aspects of the Judgement system haven’t been discovered yet. Therefore, I doubt there is really that much “common knowledge” when we don’t even know for sure the entirety of the system.
I go by what I’ve seen. I’ve seen Joker lower Oswald’s own judgement and you’ve seen it shift the judgement way over. Neither one of us is wrong, since we’ve both witnessed it. I’ve seen Clark’s LDM shift a bunch of judgement in my favor, you say the system doesn’t work with grapplers. Again, I don’t see any “wrong”.

You’re going by the hypothesis that Judgement is affected inversely by time, which I still don’t see.

This is a contradiction of your hypothesis. By the theory that Judgement is affected less over time, that means it would be less damaging to save your characters so they could be KOed LATER in the match, right?
It’s not like you won’t lose a bunch of judgement by taking a KO either way, whether it’s back-to-back or right now and then a little later…so if you believe the effect is lessened over time and your characters are doomed either way, why not try to prolong it?

Well yes, I agree, but that’s not what I meant by trying to keep your characters alive. I didn’t say to keep them alive at all costs. Just that Judgement adds to the game because it actually gives you a reason to tag out and conserve your teammates.
Just not ALWAYS. Sometimes it’s better to take a KO and get an instant +1 level of meter.
However, without Judgement, the only reason to save a character would be Quick Shift combos and Saving Shift. So then, without stock, it would be pointless to even save a character.

3819

One possibility. Judgement has a max value, and the big things like LDMs and KOs shift it a whole lot, so it seems that Judgement means more later on. Judgement only really begins to play a role when timeout is a possibility.

I will say that Judgement has some borkedness about it, but the concept isn’t bad, and it is handled much better then it is in 3s.

Also different =/= better does not mean different == worse. The two are independent variables. Personally, I think it’s a system that needs work, but can work. And Shiki makes a point about how it adds to the character dynamic- which they need to do because having the characters heal during the match isn’t really viable.

If Judgement dominated XI, I could see the argument against it, but it doesn’t. It’s just that you have to worry about multiple things.

There is a strategic skill involved in knowing when to shift gears from going to a life-based strategy to a judgement-based strategy.

3820

That would be because he picked the wrong time to do it. Most of the time, Judgement will be pushed in Oswald’s favor. It’s likely he did it at gasp the end of the match, where Judgement doesn’t move as much.

Dude, everything I’ve been saying about Judgement has been discussed and posted before. I’ve seen it happen as well. This is not some “hypothesis” as you put it, it’s fact. There is not some secret to Judgement, it’s just arbitrary at times (ie nearly random).

That’s NOT what’s happening. What is happening is that a scenario that happens a certain logical way in every other game is happening in REVERSE because of some arbitrary system that decides “oh, you hit him x number of times more than he hit you, so you’re winning”.

Judgement isn’t completely separated from damage, but if that Duck had converted those 5 or 6 hits into simple combos, your one combo wouldn’t have made up for it.

This is the thing, you shouldn’t have a system that takes priority over the lifebar that has no clear strategic element other than “hit the other guy MORE than he hits you”, key emphasis on more and not necessarily harder.

If I’m playing Shen and I hit you twice with my BnB combo (j.D, st.C, f+B -> QCF+A) and you hit me with ONE combo that does the same amount of damage I just did to you (like, Gato combo to LDM), I will still have Judgement advantage because I HIT YOU MORE. This is illogical.

Stop being a dumbfuck. Momoko is capable of running away, she’s faster than Maxima. And she doesn’t have to run for 99 seconds, moron. She only has to run for those last ten counts after she has established Judgement advantage.

Again, you’d be surprised. I would say when you have two good players, the likelihood of it happening is still pretty high, especially if they’re tenacious about it.

Several players have been quoted as having to have been TOLD they won a match they thought they lost, all because of Judgement. I’ve gone through this myself. Doesn’t sound good to me.

C’mon dude, XI’s been out for way longer than you’ve been playing it. People have played it, people KNOW things about Judgement. This is not fucking NGBC where nobody really played or some other game that may have just come out.

The ONLY situation Joker would ‘lower’ his Judgement would be end game. Again, as I’ve stated, the effect of Judgement is lowered at end game. Early or mid match, it will raise his Judgement significantly.

In general, it doesn’t work with grapplers. One isolated incident of an LDM is not enough proof to refute that. Combos tend to affect Judgement more than single hits, including combos into LDMs. Most grapplers don’t do combos that often.

That would be because I’ve been playing the game since it first fucking came out and you are a relative newbie to it. And as I said earlier, not a hypothesis. Fact.

No, because KOing a character STILL affects Judgement heavily at end game, it’s just more pronounced earlier in the match. It’s more about maintaining flow and not panicking to save an already-dead character just to fuck yourself over later on.

It’s about momentum. If your character gets KOed early, the opponent still has to fight to get your other character down. On the other hand, if I KO your character and your next character is weak coming in, I can do a simple gimmick to kill you for free, since you are coming in at a disadvantage from a positional perspective. For example, if I’m playing K’ and I KO your character and the next guy coming in is low on life, I can pull a crossup Heat Drive and kill you for free. It’s basically free Judgement from where I’m standing.

You don’t need Judgement for this. A character with no life is still a character that can fight (see my example about QSing them in off of a healthy character). Judgement just makes it even worse for you when that character dies.

Dude, you don’t really watch or play this game enough. That is really the only reason anyone keeps their characters alive now. So by your train of thought, Judgement is completely redundant.