how can casual players like lithuanian and xes understand whether or not fighting games are too hard? they’re casual about it. Would you go to someone like me who is casual about medicine when you have something really wrong with you? probably not because I don’t understand the entirety of the subject.
Lots of people who don’t even know square are dictating what should or should not be in fighting games and how can you even have a decent opinion if you don’t have perspective?
I think the #1 thing that makes other people is good is being able to play competition. Even though I have been playing all my life, I didn’t really understand fighters till I got a good chance to play a wide variety of different player types through GGPO. Being able to have steady competition taught me actually to play. The ONLY thing casual players need is to have access to the game online and have MOST tournament strategies work online because of the net code.
Other genres work like this too. Many pro level FPS\RTS players honed their craft through online competition. Since some of these fighters are stick in the 90’s for net code like sf4\umvc3, its very hard for people to step their game up online. So for most of the scene, the only way to level up is to travel to tournaments and most casuals never take that leap. However for other games like HDR, BB, persona, ttt2, SG, these games are so good online that any “casual” player could learn to be a tournament player with time and dedication while only playing online.
as for things being too “hard” that is qualitative as fuck. whats hard for someone else may be easy as fuck for another so what is honestly truly hard to do?
the GO examples, by players who don’t even understand fighting games, are just poor attempts to discredit execution. How can anyone who is “casual” about fighters even begin to understand what is necessary or unnecessary for the genre?
Everything that is known is explained and clarified. You might have to read a post or article or watch a video that isn’t on the disc or in the booklet, like how one might need to find a trainer, instructional vids or a book to learn to golf, basketball, or whatever if they’d like to take it seriously. And this is because the players found it, the players can’t make tutorials for every technique and add it in the game, all they can do is find an outlet and share it somewhere.
the answer to this question is yes, because average casual players don’t have the mindset and don’t want to put the effort in. they can’t learn it properly because it takes time. they jump from game to game, being scrubby as shit in all of them because they won’t learn.
I think it depends on the game
at some point especially with a game like tekken someone had to sit down
go to training mode and learn the system
which is not a bad thing
if you dont put the work in…thats on you
Don’t pretend you didn’t like a few posts whining about emergent gameplay and unintended uses of in game systems making fighting games too hard or how developers need to explain such things.
No one is saying overheads shouldn’t look like overheads so put away the strawman.
Are you talking about the post where you basically propose universal animation types.
You’re saying that people are acting like it is unreasonable to ask for clarity, but is it unreasonable to expect a player to get hit with something once while blocking low, regardless of what the animation looks like and register that move as an overhead in their brain?
Your proposal is remworking the design of the game, my propsal is you get hit once and then you remember. It doesn’t matter what the over head looks like as long as you register it in your mind as an overhead once you get hit. You opinion seems to be that its unreasonable for a person to get hit with an overhead even once because they don’t know they have to block high just by looking at the move.
I’m genuinely confused. That video makes my point precisely. Hell, it even has the word, “conveyance,” literally in big, bold letters at 11m51s. That entire video is arguing how Mega Man X is brilliantly designed precisely because it conveys its rules to the player. No one had to open an encyclopedia to figure out how to play. The game shows them how and introduces them to all of its rules, limitations, and interactions in the very first intro stage.
I wish i could like this 3 times
you beat me by about 3 hours in learning
the point should be simply
if it means something to you you will take the time to figure it out even its not through conventional means
that means looking it up through other resources
I’m proposing moves look like what they do. That’s entirely different than saying they should all be entirely identical.
If I were to take the standard reductio ad absurdum stance in this thread, I’d say something like, “So you’re saying it shouldn’t matter what the move looks like, people should just remember what the actual effect is?” but I don’t think I need to.
I can address your point simply by saying there’s no advantage to not communicating this information in the move. There’s nothing gained by not doing it, I don’t understand why you’d object to the idea as strenuously as you do.
I am not a casual player. I am a fairly decent MK player (nowhere near the top level players), I won a custom MK9 cabinet in a tournament (the game just came out, so the play was very crude by today’s standard), and I have attended Evo three times.
I think he’s imagining a situation where the games are either simplified and sterilized or a game where the screen is cluttered with informational glyphs and overlays. Neither of which are what you’re advocating for, mind.
You mean the same as a fighting game does?
Because the last time i checked, megaman never tells you that you have to hit some enemies on specific points, but you can figure that out by playing the game, the same way that a fg shows you that some attacks need to be blocked high when you take damage because you blocked low.
high level sports play, high level chess and go play, these are emergent. they come when everyone understands the rules of the game, and someone comes up with some sick stuff within those easily understood rules. high level soccer play is not informed by a special ruleset where you can usually have everyone move freely but sometimes you can activate a special ability that freezes your opponents in place for three steps provided you have kicked the ball between your feet the correct amount of times. that’s what these universal systems are. games like most airdashers, KOF 13, SF4. you outplay your opponent by acquiring specific archaic game knowledge in advance.
or to borrow from a game I actually like and play, 3s. I can buffer parry behind most buttons, I can SGGK and take away most defensive options altogether. if the other guy doesn’t understand how these work, he’s going to get blown up. he can’t come up with an appropriate answer because he doesn’t even understand the question. he probably just thinks I’m really fucking good at knowing what he’s going to do every time. which means I end up not having meaningful matches with anyone who isn’t somewhere in my vicinity of development. if the other guy and I have the same understand of the game, we can play mindgames with each other. otherwise matches generally end in curbstomps one way or another.
Fucking god, do you even know what you’re arguing anymore?
Like, everyone has already said that’s a good idea, that why TT2, P4A, and SG implemented it.
The newest games implemented what you said, it’s going in that direction, so what are you mad/confused/trying to discuss.
It would be like me talking about fixing overheating problems with my car, giving an explanation, seeing that the new cars have that, and then still complaining like the problem wasn’t solved.
Do you want people to go back and put extensive training mode in every old game?
Now people who like to play deceptive characters like Zafina and C.Viper have to hold that shit because you can’t learn what’s a high and what’s a low?
Yes: There has been a King of Fighters game every year since the 1970s… and they managed to sneak in a few Bloody Roars and the absolute worst games of the Mortal Kombat francise…
But the reason so many people refer to that time period as a “lost era” was because fighting games took such a backseat compared to where they’d been before.
By the middle of the PS2 era you could play Madden, and Smackdown, and S.O.C.O.M., and Fight Night, and a pretty wide variety of games online… but there were no online fighters (besides a few relatively complex to connect to Japanese releases). And today Capcom has almost a half dozen games simultaneously on the market, but during the 00’s it was mostly all about the dough that Resident Evil was generating (including even an online version on the PS2).
Now it’s Bonanza. They’ve gone back to releasing fighting games two at a time (Tekken Tag 2 and DOA5 last month…).
So if I’ve got to spell it out… then THAT was what I was talking about.
FG’s only took the “backseat” because the usa “community” only cares of 2 games, in no other country happened this supposed drought since other scenes where always open to all their options.
The sad thing, is that you people are making the same mistakes and some other news that are way worse.
The fact that we have people thinking that the market is lolsaturated and that having options is bad is just depressing.
