As long as you can move the stick quickly enough, it’s possible to avoid neutrals, though that’s probably easier on stickless controllers (and on pads).
Most of the time you are going to roll your finger over and there will be a frame or two in which all three directionals will be pressed. With all three pressed you get just straight down. You could say that is avoiding the neutral, but the same is often done without a stick player’s knowledge as well as you roll the stick around to a back position.
Triple tapping is about the same speed for Hit Box and Arcade Stick. Of course I have not learned the finger train that the Hit Box guys teach. However, I have tried to see if instant running moves can be done in an opponent’s face without buffering off a jab for example and I never could perform such. I believe it is just a built in frame/animation limitation in Tekken. Perhaps similar to how Chun can not do her lightning legs inputs too fast otherwise they do not register in SFIV as demonstrated in the recent How to Hit Box video.
Half circles and full circles just take practice. You have to do the input exactly as it is shown: back, back+down, down, down+forward, forward, forward+up, up, up+back, back. It helps a little in that back+down+forward= down, but it is best to learn the proper input and just trust that safety net if it catches you for doing it too fast.
You can never avoid a neutral with a stick which is more or less defined as the center of the stick.
But in theory couldn’t you press D, and then release and the on the same frame press U? Would that cause a f1D f2U? Practically speaking, yes completely out of the realm of reality but correct me if I’m wrong and its impossible as opposed to absurdly implausable. I guess the example I’d give is Makotos karakusa. It can be done as f.lk db b K. With a stick that’s guarenteed to be 4f min [f, n, db, b]. With the hitbox it seems like it could be 3?
At this point the last TWO people I have asked in this thread have not replied, so I’m just going to put this out there as an open question.
A.How is a hit box not a ergonomic keyboard with sanwa button instead of keys?
B. How does swapping the keys in a keyboard with sanwa buttons all of a sudden make a control method that was looked down on for over a decade so cheap it should be banned?
At this point in the discussion I can’t take any argument against the Hit Box that doesn’t address this seriously.
In theory yes, it COULD be possible, but in practice you’d either get it from a complete fluke or it wouldn’t happen at all. However, since you bring up down and up, there is one single way you can avoid neutral on a Hit Box, but only with down and up. Simply because with our SOCD cleaning, up overrides down, so if you were holding down and press up at the same time, you’d go to up and avoid neutral.
Ok but what about the other example of f, db, b? I cite it because lets say I hit with a c.lp which is +3. I do the kara ex kurakusa which frame perfect before was 4+5. So there’s a 6 frame gap where in perfectly timed c.lps will beat me. Same thing in theory with a hitbox becomes 3+5 so the c.lps will no longer win. Is this a possible scenario?
I’m not trying to be argumentative but the FG community is more or less FOUNDED on doing the unnatural. Just trying to open pandoras box and see if there’s anything in there worth being scared about. Realistically I’d vastly perfer to just try it for awhile and see whats up - but SINCE WE’RE HERE 
Since the game only samples (reads input) once per frame, you can have L on one frame, and R on the next, even if the stick is neutral in between.
Considering that the chance to skip is 1-(time in transition)/(time in a frame) and I’d expect players to spend less than 1/120 of a second in transition, I’d think a neutral skip could happen in more than half of the transitions.
Buttons are much larger and are easier to hit, and there isn’t a sea of identical tiny keys that you could accidentally press or lose your position in.
Because buttons do help, and this was very well designed/executed. Also because no-one bothered to explore it more, and to utilize the potential.
That’s a good point, I hadn’t thought of the game reading itself. It is a mite unrealistic with certain things tho like df->ub in my experience anyway, but that does dilute my argument somewhat. Also I’m uncertain but Tekken might take neutral as an input as opposed to a lack of an input. Take that attempt at a point with a grain of salt. I suspect it must since WD moves must be done as fnddf instead of just a shoryu motion.
Well ergonomic has a lot to do with viability I’d say in a control method. If you have a machine that does 100% combos all the time but to activate it you have to win Survivor then its not really gonna do much for its competitive merit. As a side note not everyone had a new KB back in the day which allowed for lp+lk inputs for instance which may have affected public opinion.
A forward to any back is most likely going to be very difficult if not impossible. Here’s the difference with the f -> b transition on a Hit Box, there’s 3 possibilities when trying to get them frame perfect:
- You perform the input too slow and you get neutral.
- You perform the input too fast, hit forward and back at the same time, and activate our OTHER SOCD cleaning measure, which gives you neutral.
- You perform the input perfectly and get back exactly the frame after forward.
Unfortunately the 3rd option would be extremely difficult for humans and I would go so far as to say there would be no way to do this reliably (reliably being able to perform it 8 out of 10 times).
I’m fine with people just wanting all the information to make an informed decision, but there’s plenty of people who are willing to jump the gun and make a decision WITHOUT knowing all the details, and that scares me. Let’s just think under the assumption that Hit Box is undoubtedly better than stick in every area with no flaws and nothing is hard anymore and your execution becomes godly in 10 minutes (none of which is true of course, but for the sake of the argument). If this was true, why is it that Hit Box should be banned? Why instead would competitive players not switch to it? I’d be willing to bet that 95% of the competitive community wouldn’t think twice about telling a pad player to buy a stick to have better execution, but it seems that even the threat of something being better than stick is enough to make people cry ban. Is it because you’d have to BUY something? Is it because you’re breaking tradition? I really don’t understand what would warrant a ban when such controllers are available to everyone. In a community that’s obsessed with playing to win, there sure are a lot of people who are throwing a fit over others wanting to do just that.
when has anyone won a match simply cause their execution is better?
last time i checked fighting games were about at least a dozen other aspects besides execution.
does a hitbox magically tell you how to space yourself and footsie? does it react for you at the right time? does it tell you how to read your opponent?
the only qualms i have about the hitbox is SODC (which is a non issue in official ones, but still questionable in homemade ones"
and tournament situations. you have to admit, the “hitbox” is a grey market area because its not necessarily standardized and anyone can drill holes in a box, so essentially to be fair i think all hitboxes should be tested before being used in tournament for legality (SODC) issues, but this will add hassle and time to running the tournaments themselves.
and what is up with this necro of a topic that was discussed several times at least a year ago?
But that doesn’t apply to D correct? So the preceding example could be done by just pianoning flk,d,b K really fast. I’m really curious to test. That does imply a significant reduction in execution requirement, but yeah as you say I don’t really have a problem with that. Huge proponent of FGs being mostly skill based as opposed to executionally strict.
Also: yes really. Tradition is a strong driving force for most things. I gather you’re one of the makers of the stick(…? pad…? key…input…thingy?), but yeah fresh ideas will always take a bit to take root unless they’re just vastly superior [Laserdisc->DVD] it’ll take a long while to take root. Couple with the fact that you’re the only people who are providing it and you have QUITE the marketing task ahead of you. And then if it did take off MadCatz would probably want a piece and such and such…
sounds rather interesting I wish you the best of luck chum!
So is any custom arcade stick, the only difference between a Hit box case and a arcade stick case is 3 holes (THREE FUCKING HOLES), Because the joystick hole takes up the locations of 4 button holes. Lets ban every custom arcade stick then, because by your criteria all DIY or Modded sticks would be under the same rules.
Take a look at every post in this thread
Check Out My New Arcade Stick! (No Image Quoting)
Because you Just asked to ban every one of those controllers
The Original Pac-land, Klax, a variation on Galaga and a few other arcade cabs had an all button input system. And all Button system is nothing new. The first commercial arcade Cabinet Computer War, a Arcade port of MIT’s Space war used only buttons as a interface. Only thing that is so different with Hit Box is that the 4 direction buttons fit with the curvature of the hand.
And on the issue of testing Mr Wizard said him self for Last Evo and future Evo events that they lack the staff, resources and time to test controllers.
And if they are going to test hitbox for SOCD cleaning they also have to test every pad and stick as well as SOCD is not exclusive to Hit box.
It make more sense to ban all controllers but un-moddified Microsoft Xbox 360 wireless controller for use on the PlayStation 3 console.
And the Xbox 360 Console have to make due with un-moddified NES game pads that have there system cables cut off.
Just stop posting any more before you make your self more of a hypocrite
Mods please delete this cesspool of a thread
My “point” was the FACT (see definition of the word below) that other places with competitive scenes use arcade machines vs consoles. Therefore if you wanted to be “internationally competitive” it would be best to adhere to the stick standard.That was a truthful statement that cannot be denied, whatever your “opinion” is. I never said the hitbox was “bad” and I get smart ass remarks which I dont consider even closely resembling anything to an argument. Just plain asshattery and trollism. Again, carry on. I’m done trying to explain myself to someone who cant comprehend simple concepts.
fact [fakt]
noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth:
How about “fuck arcade tournaments”.
All the companies decided that arcades outside Japan can go die.
So I say, all arcade tournaments outside Japan can go die, too.
Console is the new master.
(I’ve mixed in facts and opinions, try to decipher which is which!)
So ‘adhere to the stick standard’ basically means everyone should use a stick right? Also, practically every competitive scene apart from Japan and maybe some other parts of Asia are actually running console. So for everyone else that doesn’t want to go to Japan and compete, it is a completely moot point? And the people that do are like the top elite in the FGC? So for everyone else, it is a complete conscious decision on whether to use whatever input method they like, since most likely any tournament they go within their grasp will be console.
I also fail to see what this has to do with the legality of the hitbox. If anyone wants to use stick because they have the chance to be internationally (actually, just japan) competitive then they can make that conscious decision on their own. If someone wants to use a hitbox because they don’t care, then that’s fine too. If we all wanted to be internationally competitive we would have banned the use of pads long ago.
If this is your main concern, and i mean the only thing that you believe is the problem. Then i think you should go ahead and talk to Wolfkrone because i dont think he gives a fuck about what you are saying and he is one of the best players around. In case you did not know wolfkrone uses pad. So until you do that get out of this thread with your FACT talk, aight cool
buh bye.
Ahem…fact. 
Korea for the vast majority of their tournaments uses consoles, the casual competitive play takes place on a mix of console and cabinets. Singapore & Hong Kong’s about the same. Philippines is pretty much only console. The only places that really diverges from this would be Japan (for the widespread availability of arcades) and China (for the fact that consoles are banned for sale there, so unless you go onto the grey market (and pretty much every 360 is modded, so GGPO XBL) your only opportunity to play is in the arcades), and the former one is diverging even from that, with more and more console events (OH HAI GODSGARDEN)
So basically, the only reason you’d HAVE to prepare to play in an arcade is:
- You want to challenge people in that environment
- The event (e.g. Tougeki) is arcade only
- You moved to China and have very little choice in the matter.
That fact post is only a fact because “other places” means two or more.
The US is now the standard for international competitive play, not japan. How many japanese major tournaments do american top players travel to these days as opposed to japanese and other countries traveling to American majors. Saying japan sets the standard is at least 3 years behind, and if you were thinking of another country besides japan you are just crazy.
Because they play on sticks all that means is that you have to allows sticks in international play, it doesn’t mean you ban non sticks.
The learn arcade stick argument, because the Japanese do. As if you can only be good at either pad, arcade stick, hit box or other. I can use the main three and will adapt to what ever else is made to play. Just like people can be proficient in multiple languages. One can master multiple input methods.
The only limitation I and others surely have is tendinitis (me), carpal tunnel syndrome and other hand plaguing pains that one eventually comes across after much play. Particulary occuring with an input method like pad or arcade stick that does not have written rules of preventing injury and not a very good track record at such. Unlike the many years old keyboard that has tried and true rules that can be applied to Hit Box to allow players long and healthy gaming. Hit Box’s increased input speed over pad and arcade stick was only a side benefit to me as I desired something that would allieviate my pains and allow me to play for years to come. However, I am sure Aris will do his best to get it banned so he can mock and laugh at those of us that will forced to hurt to enjoy tournaments.