Foot to hand - Bad comparison
Foot games are made with the knowledge that you have less control with your legs than you do with your arms, swapping that makes a huge difference. DDR becomes much easier if you use your hands or fingers and everyone including the devs knows that. It like saying “what the hell is with all these low scoring soccer games, why don’t they just allow people to pick up the ball and carry it?” Because you just broke the core rule of Soccer (btw yes I’m calling it soccer) just like how Dance Dance Revolution is a comepletely different game if you do sitting at a keyboard.
In summary
Pad - stick - hit box = all hand = bad comparison
Also since the last person I asked didn’t respond could you tell me how a hitbox isn’t just an ergonomic keyboard stripped of extra buttons?
This argument can be summed up in one word “Wolfkrone”.
Proof that a ridiculously pro level viper can be achieved on a pad. Are stick vipers flocking back to pad in droves now? Hell no. The dedication of the player is independent of the equipment they use. If you want to win a major with Dan you’re going to need to put more time in than a Yun player. If thats what you truly want to do you Man up and start training, you don’t spend your free time lobbying Tournament organizers to ban Yun.
SRK get super biased because WE use sticks. We are in no way the majority, most people play these games on pad and we have a huge advantage over them in ease of execution, but no one has started a “back to pads movement” on SRK. Some stick players just seem mad that something may now have an advantage over them.
Its like saying you’re a “character loyalist”, but you character just happened to be top tier 5 games in a row and in the new game your character is low mid tier, you just got called on your shit. Do you stick with your character like the loyalist you claimed to be or do you find someone better? This seems to be the root of the divide in stick players on this issue, fear of being accused of controller “tier whoring”
Well its not like you cant do things on a stick than on a hitbox. Go ask Desk lol. In what way do you think it gos too far? They might make SOME things easier, but some things harder. And difference between pad and stick is fucking huge. If there wasn’t macros available for pad players, playing pad would be impossible.
I only use pad because i haven’t practiced stick yet and i like movement being linked to the thumb. If there was some freakish hybrid between D-Pad and Sanwa buttons with arcade layout, i would probably choose that.
When you post an opinion, someoe else has the right to argue against it. This WHOLE THREAD is about peoples opinions on the hitbox, what gives you the right to say ‘well, you cant argue against my point, because it’s my OPINION!’ after putting forth your stance? I think it’s you cant take it when someone brings up points that differ, or even contradict, your own.
Most are up in arms because someone well known in the community is advocating against Hit Box. Between being accused of allowing multi-directional blocking and Aris making his opinion clear that he believes it is too good. It is hard to not see that Hit Box will likely take a hit in the long run. Especially in the Tekken community that has so few adopters and now the community mascot is hating on the hardware. People seem to forget that just because it is an opinion that it is not supposed to hurt anyone else and backlash on them. Justice be done may the Heavens fall, but be fearful what comes out of your mouth because you can not take it back, opinion or not.
Being a Hit Box player or primarily spends most of my time in Tekken. I can tell that Aris has only just scratched the surface. He is unaware of the two things that truely may make the Hit Box bannable equipment in Tekken.
Walk Forward EWGF’s
Due to Left + Right = Neutral on the Hit Box. The command for a Mishima EWGF is f,n,d/f+2. So one can with Hit Box hold forward to walk, then while holding forward they can tap back to get their neutral and roll to down and hit 2 to get a walking EWGF. Quite a bit more difficult in practice due to how awkward it is to perform. However, it is a strength of Hit Box that an arcade stick can not truely match.
Max Speed BDC
Continuing on the Left + Right = Neutral. We have the Tekken backdash cancel that is advocated as one of the most important movement techniques in the game. The command for such is B,d,d/b,B,d,d/b,B, or if you choose to see it. A continous string of reverse dragonpunch motions. Reaching incredible speed in such a motion takes most players years to acheive. However, a Hit Box player using the two handed method they have discussed in their recent video regarding doing Chun Li Lightning Legs and Honda’s Hundred Hand Slap faster. We can apply the same to Tekken. What the player can do is hold back and proceed to tap forward and then down while hold back. What you get is backdash canceling made easy and you can see that the movement maxes out rather easily and see that at a certain point the character is barely moving.
I feel these two things would not help anyone very much in tournament play. However, they very much fall in line as doing something that arcade sticks and pads just can not realistically do. I am a Hit Box player and intend to stay that way. I enjoy my Hit Box and do not desire to shorten my fighting game career playing stick or pad. My left hand just can not handle that abuse much longer. As I have said, we have too many Qudans and others destroying their hands for the humor of others. If we can have equipment that allows our best to keep competing and it gets banned. Then you have only yourself to blame when the level of play gets so high that gaming careers began to commonly end in injuries.
Just wanted to put this in a separate post from ones where I’m trying to make actual points.
I’m pretty sure people who don’t work at an arcade can’t get away with this, but If you haven’t played Tekken in an arcade on a DDR pad, it is fucking awesome. It took over an hour to get a simple chain grab down at home, but it was clearly worth it if you can catch someone with it in a room full of people.
BTW it may look ridiculous but there is still no valid reason it shouldn’t also be tournament legal.
I feel like one issue with this is that it doesn’t have the position limitation that a pad or a stick has. Placement of where your stick/thumb is does limit how fast you can do certain things, like when it comes to double-tapping directions, superjumps, left-right mixup blocking, etc. There’s also much less of a chance of accidental inputs, since you can dial out the inputs directly. I just think that’s one thing that greatly sets it apart, and why people might not be so accepting of it. I’ve never used a hitbox myself personally though, so I can’t make these claims from experience.
Also banning a hitbox and banning a pad seems very different, since these games are designed with a pad/stick in mind, not a hitbox. And unless I’m missing something, a hitbox is still just a heavily modded stick at the end of the day, not a seperate peripheral. It doesn’t seem odd that a TO would be uncomfortable with that, no matter how justified it may or may not be.
I think we’re all forgetting that hitboxes are readily available to anyone who wants to play on one. So if anyone here really thinks the hitbox is a truly superior controller, go out and buy one. As of right now, its legal at Evo and any tournament modeled on Evo rules. For the fightstick purists, stand to your priniciples, train harder and smarter, and you’ll win.
and btw Wolfkrone plays on a pad and he could take most of us out, stick or otherwise.
Also if this is allowed, that precedent opens a new can of worms involving what kind of stick mods are allowed or not. I’m not saying that’s entirely a bad thing, but it does add more complications where there weren’t before. I mean if this had like capcom/snk/asw support I would shut up, but as far as I know it doesn’t.
Let’s just all play on dance pad and be done with it. We’ll then see who the real god of execution is.
On topic: another thing to point out – with all the mods going out there, what makes you think that an ordinary looking stick isn’t actually rigged to cheat?
People suggest to ban the Hitbox because you think that it can cheat even though this is easily tested. Yet people will call a ‘wolf’ joystick a ‘sheep’ because it just looks like a sheep?
Seriously. If you want to argue to ban something, do so with proof.
The HitBox just launched recently. As people have been saying, it’s a niche controller. No company in their right mind would make such an investment even if the controller itself was sound – its too much risk. In business, that’s called a startup company. The Hitbox adoption has to grow first before that argument even comes up.
What you’re suggesting would simply force everyone to play on stick, since anything that is innovative but unsponsored is banned.
That’s like saying you can’t compete in a tournament because you’re not sponsored by Capcom.
I’m not talking about the SODC thing, and I’m very aware that you can rig anything to cheat. That doesn’t really concern anything I had to say in either of my posts.
Ban Desk, his inputs and control is too fast and broken for any game he plays.
There should be no problem at all on whatever peripheral you wish to use. If something out there that is “better” and you still feel like using a certain peripheral, increase your proficiency until you cannot anymore with what you have. If you feel you’ve reached your limits and your tool proves to have insurmountable problems, then make the switch to something else which has been proven to be better [overall]. There are so many pad warriors out there that place highly on brackets despite playing on a seemingly “inferior” peripheral… when I hear people complain about Hit Box, I’m hearing people that aren’t willing to go the distance on what they have, and instead just wish to complain on a BS argument.
Hit Box is as legit as pad, stick or keyboard. What happened to the FGC? I thought a lot of us were up to the challenge of doing whatever it takes to win-- I.E. training to play on the highest levels that goes beyond peripheral choice and instead focuses on the metagame.
With that said, this thread was a hilarious read, and it’s heightened my interest in picking up a Hit Box.
I am still curious if anyone even read my point. Like SOCD being in certain games, the games themselves are the issue.
We play games that require complicated inputs, on a controller style that existed before games needed complicated inputs. The same way the D-PAD changed controllers, the Hitbox represents an attempt to innovate in an area where no one is really trying to change anything.
Other than Nintendo (NES->SNES->N64-Gamecube-Wii->WiiU have had radically different controllers that innovated in some way, console controllers have NOT been changing. Sony is pretty much using their PS1 Dualshock design, and the 360’s controller is very similar to the XBOX S controller, before that, the DC controller.
I believe that part of this is due to our inability to relearn controls. I could go play a multiplatform on 360/PS3, and the controls would be almost identical, other than the 360’s switched d-pad and analog.
Why does everyone try make the precedent argument? As if we should just commit suicide if we have a bad day, because it sets the precedent that tomorrow will also be a bad day. The highest peak is to control the game by one’s own brain waves. If such control became a mainstream form, I would have no issue with it. There are execution errors and troubles even at that peak. Unless you live in a fantasy world where people never trip over their own two feet.
Which is why I said that’s not entirely a bad thing? I mean honestly, seeing the community evolve hardware like this is pretty cool, I think the Hitbox is a really neat and well made product. Also I said that it would cause less accidental inputs and make certain things easier, not that it would give you perfect execution.
Let’s not forget that the hitbox is just a simplified keyboard. For years, people laughed at the idea that anyone could play well with a keyboard. It wasn’t until one certain person started winning MK tournaments that another certain person started to get salty about Hitboxes.
I think the only arguement that really needs to be made is whether or not it allows you to do something that would not be possible on existing methods. Then the point that Aris makes [bringing a bat to a tennis court…which is…stupid, but roll with it] is valid. If its just a question of whether or not inputs become easier then it would be a bit luddite to call it solely on that.
I haven’t used a hitbox so someone who has can validate or josh it for me, but it seems like it would allow you to avoid neutrals in a way that can’t be done with a stick and is unlikely on a pad. Like Df -> B. On a stick there has to be at least 2 frames between those two, but with this it seems like it’d just be the 1. D to U is probably a more relavant example. Stuff like double tapping/triple tapping inputs in less useful in a SF based game, but in Tekken it does become a real issue. Ninas stuff like u1~B~u becomes much easier. Which makes me want to buy one now. Hmmmmm. I THINK hitstun would make it irrelevant, but it would be really neat if avoiding neutrals made it 10f perfect instead of 11. Take the tekken world by storm [As a side note this would also make stuff like ST SPDs more likely SO HA. EVERY ST PLAYER BUY ONE NOW AND LET THE WHINERS MOAN] Also how do hcfs work? There’s 6 contiguous inputs on a stick but for a hit box its just 3 inputs? Done perfectly would it just not come out? Does not get o_O Actually I’d think it’d end up as b,db,df. Anyone know if input leniency would let that work? My tornado throw is stronger than yours!
Its actually a more advanced kb allowing for multiple inputs and double tap friendly methods on directions.
You’re thinking about it like a stick player, which is fine, but it’s not accurate. Firstly, you do not avoid neutrals. Every time you let go of a button you’re going to neutral. Yes, going from right to left is faster because there’s no stick travel time, but you do still go to neutral. Also, inputs don’t change frame data. Unless you’re taking in the time it takes to do the move in that example, it would be the exact same.
As for half circles, there’s only 3 buttons, yes, but you’re still doing all 5 inputs for the half circle. Because down+left will get you down, left and etc., you roll your fingers across the buttons to do the full back, down back, down, down forward, forward. There’s some funny things in SFIV, but I’ll save that for the next How to Hit Box.
[As a side note this would also make stuff like ST SPDs more likely SO HA. EVERY ST PLAYER BUY ONE NOW AND LET THE WHINERS MOAN] Also how do hcfs work? There’s 6 contiguous inputs on a stick but for a hit box its just 3 inputs? Done perfectly would it just not come out? Does not get o_O Actually I’d think it’d end up as b,db,df. Anyone know if input leniency would let that work? My tornado throw is stronger than yours!