Are easy fighters a good thing or bad thing?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/1575/Master%20Chibi">Master Chibi</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Combos are the least interesting part of fighting games. Execution is a different matter but really if the two go hand in hand for you then maybe you should look into competitive piano recitals or something.</div>
</blockquote>

Combos are pretty cool if there’s loads of opportunities for resets, tech traps and (burst) baits during/at the end of the combo. For all the flak American resets get, it’s really cool seeing players actively capitalizing on those chances.

Plus, some combos just look really really awesome:

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Because it’s unreactable and a 50/50 guess only if you are a weak fighting game player who’s not reading your opponent, trying to predict what he’ll attempt for his oki? Or understand your options? Read this:

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no sometimes you really do just have to guess your way out. 3s Makoto is a great example where every wakeup is a scary guessing game. yeah you can say you are “reading your opponent” but ultimately you are taking a guess and hoping you live through it. guess wrong and you are either dead or a lot closer to stun. honestly I think if you are reading your opponent and getting out of wakeup pressure every time they probably aren’t playing that well.

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Any game that is worth it’s salt no matter how user friendly really does not have to do with ease or difficulty. For me it really boils down to a lot of factors, but mainly it’s longevity and depth. In some cases easier inputs such as “easy mode” in MVC1 severely limit the depth of play. However, in a game like P4U the power of the character and the overall engine promote more depth. Things like autocombo rarely come into play once your a bit more seasoned with the game and just like all good fighters footsies, mix-ups, defense and zoning take precedent. Games like GG are more difficult to learn but only because the overall format of the game and it’s engine is quite unique (in comparison to SF). ie. not all punches look like punches and not all kicks act like kicks (in some cases). But once you take the time to learn the game things get easier.

What I feel is that people don’t want to take the time to learn and all want an easy win or to feel accomplished. But anything worth a damn isn’t easy and let’s face it most good fighters are not. Mostly what takes away from a game is elements that force a player into difficult sometimes impossible situations to deal with (true unblockable set-ups, 50/50 mix-up after knock down (vega wall dive anyone?), severe imbalance) . Almost any game that has random elements IMO, tend to be less enjoyable. The only game I can think of that does not fall victim to having things like that is 3S, mainly because in most cases parry can beneficial. But really even with random quirks a game can still be excellent.

Most people that want an easy fighter typically want some form of instant gratification. But easy to play or not there will always be someone better than you so you just have to deal. So why not take the time to learn a truly deep game?! That for me is really where most if not all of my satisfaction comes from when playing games is getting better at them! So in short easy fighters are only good if the game is good. It becomes more difficult when you take an already complex game and make it easier, more often than not it becomes more unenjoyable (in the long run). Square peg round hole situation. That’s why games like P4U and Smash with ‘easy’ entry level stuff just work. Taking SF and making it ‘easier’ can really fuck with the overall core of the game making it less fun.

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I hope this sarcasm, because all the things you mentioned (dependent on the game, of course) can severely limit the enjoyment of the game because that is after all what makes any game unique. If the engine is homogenized to such an extent you can limit the player base. Easy games tend to only work if the engine around it is built up to accompany that ease. Taking a complex game and making it easier tends to hinder more than it helps.

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Well maybe some people will critize me but for me if the game is fun and polished i really don’t mind on how easy or complex the game is, i enjoy some games like P4U, GG and BB because they offer me a good skillfloor and at the same time they give me a good skillcap to prevent an homogenized game, this community has always been divided because of this topic but personally i just enjoy everything that the genre offers me as long as they keep the 2 bases i mentioned before and the most important thing: Just enjoy the game :smiley:

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Sigh…
Have you ever stop to think that just because you don’t like / understand something, it doesn’t mean that it is bad or it is wrong?

I love you, possibly homo

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head shots

kick factor

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http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/

sadly this applies all too well to current gen fighting games

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Mostly it applies to sf4. That is the #1 culprit.

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Gibson:
It’s the gameplay mechanics that they become used to. The way that players instantly accelerate when they move, they don’t build up speed. “The weapons really don’t have a lot of power” [in RO2]. They’re all very weak. The way they handle… They’re like: “I hate Red Orchestra, I can’t play it.” Well, why? “Because the guy doesn’t move like he does in Call of Duty. Call of Duty has great movement.” Why is it great? “Because it just is, I just like the way it works.” So you don’t like the momentum system in Red Orchestra? “Yeah, it sucks, it’s clunky, it’s terrible.” Well, why? “It’s just because I’m used to this.”

Yeah this so doesn’t apply to fighting games. Keep dreaming that it isn’t happening Look at the stream monsters if it isn’t a capcom game they’ll say “the game is dead”. Look at how people are saying SFxT is not decent game but saying it is a great game same could be said about the kuso that is UMvC3 as well.

What happened to being able to select actual mechanics you want to use in a fighter?
What happened to being able to have an interesting move set for a character?
What happened to the speed of the games not just how quick a KO can happen but the time you need on reactions have been slowed down to a crawl?
What happened to the ability to move?
What happened to multiple supers?
What happened to training mode where it is devoted to ?
On top of that why is it 1 frame links when even ST doesn’t depend on them to making a player good?
Why when is there is an update or patch it usually dealing with nerfs?
Why are hit boxes so retarded when it ruins the neutral game?
Why is there a priority engine on attacks?

This list applies to more than just Capcom games.

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What happened to being able to select actual mechanics you want to use in a fighter?

Complicates balance, and is argubly if it actually makes a game deeper as it frequently ends up being a game of counterpicking mechanics

What happened to being able to have an interesting move set for a character?

The new characters in UMvC3 and SFxT all had interesting move set, how do you define “interesting” move set anyway? Obviously it’s going to be harder to come out with unique moves in fighting games as more and more moves get made

What happened to the speed of the games not just how quick a KO can happen but the time you need on reactions have been slowed down to a crawl?

Forces you to think more in your matches and punishes those who go ham and autopilot

What happened to the ability to move?

Makes movement in fighting games a lot deeper and harder to master

What happened to multiple supers?

Limits the power of supers so that you have to be more strategic with its use. Ultras in SF4 would be more imbalance if you have to fight against both anti air ultras AND ultras that are easy to combo into

On top of that why is it 1 frame links when even ST doesn’t depend on them to making a player good?

None of the current games depend on 1 frame links to “make a player good” either. 1 frame links are not something new in fighting games

Why when is there is an update or patch it usually dealing with nerfs?

There are buffs too, but it’s easier to make things overpowered and then tone it down than to make things underpowered and then buff it up

Why are hit boxes so retarded when it ruins the neutral game?

Old fighting games have retarded hit boxes too

Why is there a priority engine on attacks?

Other than projectile invulnerability in UMvC3 I can’t think of any "“priority engine” on attacks in recent fighters. And what’s wrong with priority engine?

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Blazblue uses a priority engine where some moves are tagged with head/body/foot attributes that can determine priority.

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The opinions of stream monsters should never factor into any discussion about fighting games. Besides, who knows what they would have said prior to 200 anyway. It’s a new phenomenon so any comparisons to yesteryear are invalid.

About the article, I think consoles are a bigger culprit that COD. All the interesting parts of FPS were removed to make the games more accessible to console players. Pretty soon the mechanics behind popular games like Halo and COD became the blueprint for newer games.

As for FGs, SFIV didn’t “ruin” anyone who was already playing FGs. I still play ST with people who played it before SFIV. Yeah the newer players don’t like STs throw system, high damage and difficulty. You try asking them to play GG, they tell you it looks like Mugen (haha - actual quote). VS? It’s too old. Melty? Too animu. However, if it weren’t for SFIV they probably wouldn’t have even given these games a second glance. Regardless, I am playing more FGs against more people now than I did before 2008, which is a very good thing, no matter what the reasons.

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MUGEN game? I have a friend who said that Guilty Gear looks like an 8-bit NES game. Lolwut? This same guy wants to play Persona 4 Arena only because he liked the Catherine game a lot (Persona and Catherine are both made by Atlus).

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To be fair though, a lot of the pre-SFIV crowd also won’t play GG, BB etc because they don’t like anime games.

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But the reasons actually do matter, because without them this “achievement” is simply based on pure luck, which won’t last for long.

Trends come and go, and what happens in a few years when some new trend takes fighting games’ place? If no one bothers to “educate” at least some of the people right now and make them appreciate the genre itself and not just “when’s marvel?!” then they’ll move on and you end with nothing, as far as actual scene growth goes.

What you are saying is like “Hey look this IGN reviewer gave this good game a good grade and bad game a bad grade. So what if he did this for all the wrong reasons? I think IGN is gonna be a better review website from now on.” And then some time passes, nothing really changes and you act surprised. The reasons always matter because they show you the actual understanding of said person, everything else is just momentary luck.

If someone really likes a specific game’s style and mechanics, be it UMVC3 or whatever, I have no problem with it. But the fact that the games are popular or not based solely on the wrong reasons like fanservice and art style, (not even if the aesthetics are well made or not, just the mere style of them) and 0 appreciation for well implemented mechanics is bad for the scene because it kills criticism and the possibility of acquiring taste.

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And the alternative (having noone to play) is better?

But besides that, most people already understand some of the reasons, but they don’t really have a firm grasp on how to package these ideas in a way that makes both the hardcore and casual fans happy. It can argued that SFIV just got lucky (according to Ono, noone at Capcom thought it would be a success), but so what? Some of the community’s most beloved titles also just got lucky. It just goes to show that even after so many years developers, publishers and players don’t really have a good understanding about how to attract new players. And that’s not surprising because it’s a hard problem. Even Ono admitted this is still one area that he did not succeed at.

Also, that it is difficult to “educate” people about what makes a “good” fighting game has nothing really to do with how you keep existing players and attract new ones. Take any random game from the 80s with simple mechanics yet challenging gameplay and I’m sure you can convince a modern gamer that it is in fact a good game, but that doesn’t mean they are going to want to play it. I can’t even begin to count the number of times people have told me they don’t want to play a game just because it looks old or funny. This phenomenon has nothing really to do with fighting games. Some people just want to play the latest, even if it means they won’t be playing the greatest.

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You mean like low, mid, over head attacks?

120

I take it somebody’s never played 3rd Strike and how the priority system made Chun’s HPs into arguably the best normals in the game.